Originally Posted by Whidbey (Post 1165493)

I don't agree with you here ACL.

I think talk of a grand staple is a superficially attractive course of action but it ignores a few important issues, IMHO.

This proposed solution assumes the true cause of the pay disparity between mainline and DCI is the organizational structure of the arrangement. While that is certainly part of the issue, the other (and I would argue more important) part is simple economics. During the DCI explosion, with the 250 hour requirement, our profession was inundated with an oversupply of airline pilots. Even if we brought all DCI flying in house at a C2K quality pay scale, lacking more stringent barriers to entry to the career, how long do you think it would be before another SWA, Jetblue, etc. started competing on our routes with much lower pilot costs? (No, I don't believe that once mass retirements start in 5 years that airlines won't be able to find a way around the increased flight time requirements).

Whether it's from DCI arrangements or competing airlines, the real enemy of a professional pilot is a substantial number of pilots who are willing to fly the same passengers for less.

I think the real battle ground here is having meaningful criteria for selection and barriers to entry to this profession beyond the willingness to incur a large amount of student debt.

One other thing. We like to talk about needing higher pay, career expectations, etc. to make Delta attractive to high quality applicants in the upcoming pilot shortage. If we think a DCI staple is going to solve our pilot recruitment issues, my argument is it would make them worse.

Do you think any of the experienced RJ captains from outfits who don't get hooked up with this big staple are going to want to start over again behind thousands of twenty somethings? By stapling our DCI carriers you are going to make Delta attractive only to low experience (read: no PIC time) civilians.

Not many 35 year old 0-4s are going to be willing to start behind that mass of guys, either.

Originally Posted by Timbo (Post 1165658)

And that's why the 76 seater is going to die on the vine, we don't need to 'trade' anything to recapture that flying, it will have to come to us (or to a 100 seater, and right now, WE own that flying) as fuel prices go up and the minimum wage pilot supply goes down, if we hold the line at 76 seats.

Which is why I feel we only need to enforce what we have today, re. 76 seat scope, certainly not give another inch, airframe or seat, and instead focus on all the other Code Sharing and JV's, which are taking our Big Airplane flying away.

Like I said earlier, If they do want to get a single additional 76 seater, it should cost them an additional wide body, added to the fleet, not just as a replacement, but an increased number of widebodies, and then if that fleet goes down, so do the RJ's, 1 for 1.

T, as far as the longevity pay, I think that issue will finally gain support, as soon as Management starts parking the biggest airplanes and the most senior guys get displaced to a pay cut. But it's a long way off yet.

I'd vote for it, but most guys I fly with wouldn't. We all know the hardest working pilots at DL are the DC-9 F/O's!

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1165709)

The financial guys at ALPA are working on these types of assessments on a near daily basis. The EFA team works on the numbers constantly. Most recently they did a complete assessment for APA. They also provided numbers in preparation for our opener. Where the numbers come in will be a critical part of our negotiations with the company. They are being studied and looked at on a near constant basis. Your statement could not be further from the truth.

Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 1165718)

Guys,


Its really not that hard.

1. First stop with all the "He is senior he does not care about us/scope."
It does no good and divides us.
2. Hold the line where it is - 255 large RJs. Any more are flown by DAL Pilots.
3. $143/ Hour and $97/hour. That is the payrate that JetBlue pays on the E-190. We match that and maybe add a few bucks and it is an entry level Captain and FO seat.
4. If the company can't make a profit at that rate. TS. Figure it out or get new management that can. If Jetblue can get by with that rate then we can.
5. Furthermore lets slowly start raising the bar like ALPA and DALPA have been saying for years. I must admit I have not really thought this out fully yet, but if we match Jetblues rates hopefully other carriers will match us (pattern bargaining) and who knows, the 1500 hour rule (despite ALPAs efforts to water it down) might actually help us slowly raise industry rates.

If ALPA even asks us to allow more 70/76 seaters at DCI then they are not serious about raising the bar throughout the industry - in fact they would be impeding it by allowing DCI to keep compensation low. If and when this happens ( I hope it doesn't) it would be time to take a good hard look in the DPAs direction.

But the most important point - hold the large RJ limit where it is now - 255!

When you find yourself in a hole - stop digging.
Delta can fly as many 76 jets as they want - tomorrow! As long as they are flown by Delta Pilots.

Scoop

Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 1165722)

We match Jetblues E-190 rate. Southwest does not fly them, and does not have E-190 rates.

And it is just a start. Lets get the Jets in house.

Or we can keep outsourcing to DCI.

Then again whats your plan?

Scoop

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1165709)

The financial guys at ALPA are working on these types of assessments on a near daily basis. The EFA team works on the numbers constantly. Most recently they did a complete assessment for APA. They also provided numbers in preparation for our opener. Where the numbers come in will be a critical part of our negotiations with the company. They are being studied and looked at on a near constant basis. Your statement could not be further from the truth.

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1165594)

Guys, Jack is a very junior guy that hasn't been in a BK contract for the prime part of his career with no time to recover what was taken from him. He will trade your financial future for his ability to fly captain for the next 20 years of his career....

nyah nyah..

Oh, and bite me Jack.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1165749)

Your argument is exactly why it will never happen and there will always be a DCI.

If you look back, I pointed this out already. Also, the DCI pilots will not be negotiating from the height ground. DCI is going to shrink and in a big way. Unless Dal goes and invests in last generation turboprops, they will shrink by 50% in the next five years. These guys are going to be shrinking and starting over is going to be a given except for the most senior.