I think folks well below that seniority level would agree with that. Fill up 401k, AND 401c to fed limits in combination with ""reasonable"* pay rate increases is a goal I could get behind, before higher pay rates with no change in retirement contribution.

* reasonable is up for debate. Fights on.

Someone gets it. 15% from DAL and 20% from you is going to land you well short after several decades. Especially if your relatives live to 100 with regularity. Some of you DTW and ATL guys, well...

IMO, at no point did Timbo or 88drvr ever try to put a super fine point on the lost million, they averaged it. Now you are trying to put a super fine point on it just to be argumentative. If it was a million more or less for a middle of the pack guy, it was a million for everyone...mean, median, mode who cares...noone but you argues against it.

Now for some reason you demand some scientific analysis...demand it from your effing union, you know the leverageless, no strategic goal, collective bargaining agent.

I don't understand this 15% + 20% statement at all. What are you trying to say? Re: the we all gave a million argument. I agree and it seems like a fair average. We gave up a lot. Furloughed folks lost 100% for a while. Shareholders lost 100%. I'm not sure we had many alternatives. What I don't understand is how that is an argument or leverage. 1) management already knows what we gave up and 2) they don't care. Neither does the BoD, the NMB, any Judge, Mediator or Arbitrator or PEB member. We care, but they don't. Telling them what they already know and don't care about is like talking to my cat. We will probably have to throw a shoe at some point. IMO. OFG

I think 100K a year as an average might be a little bit high, but not by much. My guess would be between 75 and 100K.

However there is really no reason to guess as this information is readily available and I sure hope the NC guys have it. Divide total Pilot costs in 2004/total Pilots. That will give you an average for that year. Do the same for the following years and bingo you can get your answer.

Scoop

Back off a little. I am not making any argument just to be argumentative. I truly do not believe it is as simple as some are trying to make it out to be, and I certainly don't think it a legitimate basis upon which to make demands for "restoration". There are 11000+ different scenarios. By using an average, we might very well be selling ourselves short. When I did my LBP analysis, the 7ER was the lion's share of a 30 year career pay wise based on zero (airline) growth and upgrading at the soonest possibility. Now that is trending downward and we all know why. Just something to think about, and I didn't say that just to make the bigger pays more is retarded argument. But what I am saying is that since bigger does pay more, and we want restoration based on equipment size, the company might not have to shell out as much to completely restore career earnings potential.

Excellent idea Scoop. Would the pilot cost numbers not be publicly available via the companies financials?

To my knowledge, those numbers are not broken out by individual employee groups

That's how I read it, too. I take it from Oberon's failure to respond to your post that he's happy to accept bankruptcy rates as his baseline.

That's all he's known since he's been in the industry. And he thinks history is irrelevant. I don't even know where to start with that. :eek: