I agree--it's scary. But Oberon, although he has turned himself into a pin cushion here, is hardly the only one giving in to complacency. (And how can he be complacent already, anyway?)

I discussed the contract situation with the guy I was flying with the other day. His response: "I don't worry about it. We'll get what we get." :eek::eek:

It's simply amazing that after guys have worked this hard to get here, they're dysfunctionally complacent when it comes to being properly compensated.

Sure, it's feels good for them to say that "money isn't everything," or "well get what we get" (the epitome of passivity). Maybe it's a way for them to rationalize their unwillingness to fight for every cent of pay, and any every second off.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, like it or not, money and QOL are pretty damn important. RA, Sleepy Ed, and the boys agree--and they're happy to enjoy theirs at our expense.

Making it easier to follow. If the company puts 15% into a 401k, you put in 20% up to the limit the net result after 20-30 years of market instability (assuming there is one in five) will land you well short of where the DB would put you, otherwise they would still be around. The DC is FAR cheaper than the DB ever could be, the 15% is a poor replacement at best. With a DB the company must ultimately infuse raw cash during downturns to fund it, this is not the case with a DC.

We never hit a real retirement wave with the old DB system, one can only imagine that the old system was at least $100k a year more costly to the company, all benefits considered.

Now what am I trying to say with all this? There isn't one solution. You have older and wealthier pilots who are already set in retirement, they likely desire a larger W-2 to better support a lifestyle while they are younger. Some pilots may be fine with current earnings and are looking ahead 20-30 years from a position of just finally starting off in life.

Like the post I quoted I would be very disappointed with a 23% raise (heavily taxed if without debt) and no increase to retirement. Personally, I'd rather see all of 2015s gains go into third party tax shelters. Perhaps it's time to split the contract because we have two generations of pilots and their wants are likely not aligned.

My last point and I will bow out for the night. In the 2000s pilots were retiring with several million. Here we are almost two decades later and out current set of retires won't really retire for another decade, that's almost 3 decades past the 1997-2000 group. $3m has nowhere near the buying power it did back then. And for those thinking I am on track to retire with several million in 2030-2045.... It is basically a couple hundred grand half a century later. Call BS on this? Look at fuel, food, and home prices (esp coastal) over a 50 year period.

Retiring with the dollar amount guys did half a century earlier is in my opinion, falling well short. We need SUBSTANTIAL increases into retirement.

It doesn't need to be reconciled for each pilot, but for our group as a whole. As pointed out above, simply divide what the pilot pay/benefit cost was in 2004, by the number of pilots, then do the same for 2014 (or 2015). Compare those two numbers, convert it to a percentage, that's our needed pay rate for restoration.

Now, you can slice it up how ever you want; pay rates, retirement plan contributions, more vacation time, higher min day guarantee, what ever, but you KNOW the company is still making a bunch of money off OUR SACRIFICES. Just look at the manning PBS is saving them! Then there's the combined 767 Domestic/International category with a lower body count, etc. Think that hasn't added to you stagnation?

I'm pretty sure it would be well north of $2 billion between what our pay/benefits cost Delta and NW in 2004, vs. what they are paying us today, when you include our DB funding.

I'm not unreasonable, if the company makes $4 Billion, I'm willing to split it with the stock holders. $2 Billion in improvements to our contract, and $2 Billion in dividends.

^^^^^ THIS! ^^^^^

10 years ago when I was a 757 Capt, my DB plan was worth $1.4 Million. Today it would be worth over $3 Million.

At 15% DC funding at today's 777 Captain rates ($265/hr), it would take 35.2 years for the company to contribute $1.4 million! :eek:

The 2004 777 Capt. pay rate was $319/hr. If you flew 1000 hours/yr. for your final 3 years, using the old DB plan, which was 60% of your final 36mo. average earnings, that would put you at $191,400 per year, IN RETIREMENT, 10 years ago! I know some of you won't hold the 777, but the 2004 pay rate for the 757 was $265. That would net you about $159,000/yr . when you retired, for the rest of your life, no investing needed. Oh, and your wife kept getting most of it (60%?) if you died first, until her death.

THAT's why the company wanted to cram the DC plan down our throats! It is MUCH cheaper for them!

BTW, the American Pilots never lost a cent in their retirement plans in their bankruptcy. My friends there who have about the same time in there as I do here (29+ years), do have $3 Million in their retirement funds today.

When do you think Delta is going to make sure YOU do too, giving you 15% of 1998 pay rates?

Timbo, it would be tough to contrast 2004 to now because the DB plan was underfunded and then it was hit by early retirements. To give you an idea I read a financial statement from AA and in one quarter they were dumping 300-500 million into the DB plan under Arpey. Granted that was likely all employees but I'd bet pilots were half of that. I bet the DB plan alone cost $100/hr to run per pilot. People tend to WAY under estimate the financial investment to generate six figures of income during retirement, even during downturns.

I agree the company doesn't care, it is important for pilots lurking this thread, even at other airlines, to have an idea.

I agree 100%. And then don't forget the "uncertainty factor" in that the DB plan was pretty much a guaranteed income, regardless of what the stock market did. Now, your retirement money is fully at risk to the whims of the markets.

Think 2008 can't happen again? :eek:

Count on it!

And if you are investing 20% of your money for your retirement now, that money is not available for you to pay bills. i.e. another 20% pay cut vs. the old DB plan which did NOT require you to 'invest' anything. :rolleyes:

Do you even read my posts? Where have I said that I think history is irrelevant? You think you are entitled to some unsaid pay rate because you used to make an equivalent rate. That's not learning from history that's just asking for something you used to have. How does the negotiating environment compare to the negotiating environment in 2001? That's the history that matters.

2000 DAL earnings about $1 Billion
2014 DAL earnings are projected to be about $4 Billion

Is that enough for some 'restoration' to 10 year old pay rates?

And if it's not, how much is enough? :rolleyes:

Dalpa is furiously attempting to hack Oberon's account. They want to find out who he is so they can attempt to install him as the DTW FO rep.