Well if you remember back when we first got PBS, the bid preference was used to bid away from LCA. Remember recovery was so awful nobody wanted to bid a trip that would have a LCA. It was a bad deal that anybody could be "stuck" with (if an LCA came onto your trip later.)

It cost us precious negotiating capital, your money, to turn a bad deal into a good deal so that nobody got "stuck" with it.

So now let's just give it all back? Is that what this is about? Then why did we work so hard for this QOL improvement to begin with? If it affects such a small % of pilots, as you say, then leave it alone.

Oh, and AMR and UAL got this abortion of a deal during their bankruptcy. What, are we pattern bargaining in reverse now? Im sure they are looking to change, not look at it as a standard.

 

For once I see both sides of this argument. I just hope I'm not forced (beyond my bidding) to become a Delta FO for the 3rd time in my career. Actually, if it pays well with good QOL, I'll fly anything in any seat.

BD

 

bd......I like the way you are thinking. It is the mistake of mistakes when we install permanent and all encompassing permanent solutions, to what are in reality only temporary problems.

Limitations and sunset language are a must on any accommodations.

There are multiple solutions to deal with the temporary staffing problems that can be offered.....you just put one on the table.

It might be beneficial if we all were to decide and determine there is a default 'baseline' pwa we operate under, and the amendable events are simply opportunities to TEMPORARILY retune and adjust from that baseline to accommodate the operational realities our employer and industry are facing.

Some things, like the profit sharing...are self adjusting, and should be installed as permanent baseline components. Some things, like staffing, and productivity levels, are not static, or self correcting. and will require temporary periodic adjustments away from the baseline.

 

While you are correct, the simple fact is we already gave something of significant value up to get this. You are right in that a handful of guys getting full salary to never fly and/or rocking triple time to fly as much as everyone else is low hanging fruit. But if they want it back, IMO, they can have it back, however it will cost the following:

Iron clad recovery protections. Not one minute earlier report, not one minute later release, if original rotation had no red eyes or MED etc then the recovery can't either, etc. Credit pays the greater of the two on a daily basis. They only get one bite at the apple: lose a 4 day and they can't give you four one days, etc. One pairing, period. They have to let you know by 3PM the day prior, and you get PS to work if you need it. If your recovery trip leaves you stranded in domicile then you get a company paid for room.

There's probably more protections needed as well.

Even that would be a concession over current book though. It isn't just about the few "triple timers" but about the jobs. Giving up our current book for either trip pulls or recovery costs jobs, period. However trip pulls are, by far, the worse option as they negatively effect nearly 100% of the FO's, or 75% under the best case labratory scenarios in any case.

Therefore we would need job gains to offset or exceed the job losses caused from this. One way would be vacation. First of all 3:30 isn't enough. Secondly 15 minutes of that being pay no credit is not enough. Our vacation needs to be improved, pay and credit, independant of this issue. Then improved some more to offset or exceed the jobs lost from changing from trip drops back to recovery with superior protections. That way we all benefit from the positive changes and its job neutral to positive.

The solution in POS15 was just over reaching and ridiculous.

 

Not to be a dick, but new hires holding a line so early in their careers have no room to ***** about losing their lines and weekends off when the triple dippers are forced to bid regular lines like 95% of the rest of the pilots.

The current life of a newhire DAL pilot is nowhere near "normal" these days! Senior guys bidding reserve and junior guys holding a line is a new version of "The Twilight Zone".

Just wait for the September AE when a whole bunch of senior guys get kicked off the whale! Lots of line holding ERA's going to be flying Lagos, all nighters, and sitting reserve after that!

YMMV!

 

Allow me to interject. Im a new guy. New guys like me coming in as quickly as we are, are allowing HUGE IMPROVEMENTS TO YOUR QOL. I don't know if you notice it as much since it depends on your category, but this isn't just good for us, its GREAT for you too. We all benefit. That's the beauty of it. Additionally, its not the new guys that were complaining about the loss of schedule, as they were likely not going to get the sweet LCA trips to great destinations on the weekdays etc. The greatest harm would have been to the senior FOs who lose their bidding power. Just making sure you realize we're all in this together.

Note: I am top 15% in my category (NYC717B), I bid reserve on purpose, and up until last month we had zero LCA's. But just because this didn't "affect me" (perception) didn't mean I was willing to throw someone else under the bus for it.

 

I'm glad you didn't go to that other place.

 

haha I came so close. Glad you guys talked me off the ledge

 

Yup...and have you noticed that none of the ALPAholics has ever/will ever respond to this incredibly reasonable proposal?

Carl

 

Not throwing anyone "under the bus"... Just pointing out that even YOU are benefiting from a very unusual situation.......

When the 95% of us got hired at DAL or NWA, most sat reserve for years. A new hire such as yourself holding a line within your first year is very unusual. No "HUGE QOL" improvements for me here....Only retirements help lift my "boat"....

As far as my QOL......I have been here for 25 years, lost my retirement, will never be senior enough to fly anything larger than 7ER except from the right seat, and I work my butt off to earn a decent W2, and forgive me if I don't have the compassion to cry when an f/o can out earn me on the 88, and he might lose some of that amazing, once in a lifetime benefit. I'm not upset that he can but it's a once in a lifetime good deal.

The senior guys, dead zoners, who helped vote the TA down are also some of the guys who SHOULD be holding the largest grudge, since WB growth has fallen off the map. Ask anyone if they thought that after 25 or 30 years they'd still be flying 5 legs a day to BHM and CLT instead of the cream trips to Paris and London. We have or will have parked all the 747's, almost half the 757's, and are parking 7er's and 300's.

Welcome Ghilis. I hope your career at Delta is unbelievably awesome! Timing is everything!