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Originally Posted by Erdude32
(Post 2004487)
I stopped reading your post right there. If the COMPANY had a shred of integrity we'd have had restoration before 6 BILLION dollar buy backs & dividends. If the Company had a shred of integrity they wouldn't want us to take a PS cut while they change the formula to enrich themselves (yet again), if the Company had a shred of integrity they would've given the other employees pay raises 1/1/16 and the integrity list goes on and on.
I'll provide my services with the same level of integrity the company shows me, nothing more nothing less. It's a two way street. Don't try and guilt trip someone to your point of view with integrity. The Integrity backpack is DOA. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 2004527)
We have to be better than the mgmt sorts who would gladly take everything that they could. That is my entire point.
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Originally Posted by MikeF16
(Post 2004540)
This kind of thinking is exactly why management thought they could low ball us while paying off themselves and stockholders. YGBSM.
But if you think I am going to high - five or "boo yah!" dudes who say "I was furloughed so now I call in sick one a quarter whether I need to or not" or "I screwed up my vacation bids so I'll just call in sick instead" or "I got that captains eye disease last week: I just couldn't see coming to work" (these are real conversations from real pilots) then think again. Then these same dudes will rant about how much more they deserve to be paid. Apparently that doesn't bother you as much as it does me. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 2004527)
We have to be better than the mgmt sorts who would gladly take everything that they could. That is my entire point.
Your statement is the equivalent of brining a game of monopoly to a gun fight and expecting to win. That mindset is what management manipulates. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 2004547)
That's why we get crushed.
Your statement is the equivalent of brining a game of monopoly to a gun fight and expecting to win. That mindset is what management manipulates. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 2004527)
We have to be better than the mgmt sorts who would gladly take everything that they could. That is my entire point.
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Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 2004548)
No, your "I hate everything and everybody, and not only always vote no but even find it fun and DON'T WANT a TA worth voting for" mentality that gets us nowhere. Believe it or not at some point, sometime somewhere we will reach a decent TA. NA 15 wasn't it and we were right to reject it. But I haven't seen or heard anything from you suggesting you have a clue as to how to get from here to there...if you even want to.
And it's true. I'll vote "no" for any QOL concession. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 2004570)
Your "pretty please" technique won't cut it.
And it's true. I'll vote "no" for any QOL concession. Feel free to vote no indefinitely if any TA lacks merit. I would expect nothing less. Just have an idea of what you might vote for. |
Mission oriented boy scout becomes airline pilot. MBA's eat you guys for breakfast while you're willing to give away the store to help fix his "problems". An industrial labor relations specialist wildest dream!
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Originally Posted by Erdude32
(Post 2004487)
I stopped reading your post right there. If the COMPANY had a shred of integrity we'd have had restoration before 6 BILLION dollar buy backs & dividends. If the Company had a shred of integrity they wouldn't want us to take a PS cut while they change the formula to enrich themselves (yet again), if the Company had a shred of integrity they would've given the other employees pay raises 1/1/16 and the integrity list goes on and on.
I'll provide my services with the same level of integrity the company shows me, nothing more nothing less. It's a two way street. Don't try and guilt trip someone to your point of view with integrity. The Integrity backpack is DOA. There was an expectation that our decade of sacrifice would be rewarded when our herculean efforts helped turn the company around. They have made it crystal clear that efforts of everyone EXCEPT the pilot group will be rewarded. I don't think there is any sacrifice to integrity to work within the guidelines of the contract. The company has been very clear in that regard. Management is performing their fiduciary duty to shareholders by extracting every penny of value they can within the contract. As providers for our families or just for ourselves and multiple ex-wives, we have a similar fiduciary duty. Every pilot should extract every penny of value out of our negotiated contract. |
Originally Posted by Erdude32
(Post 2004487)
I stopped reading your post right there. If the COMPANY had a shred of integrity we'd have had restoration before 6 BILLION dollar buy backs & dividends. If the Company had a shred of integrity they wouldn't want us to take a PS cut while they change the formula to enrich themselves (yet again), if the Company had a shred of integrity they would've given the other employees pay raises 1/1/16 and the integrity list goes on and on.
I'll provide my services with the same level of integrity the company shows me, nothing more nothing less. It's a two way street. Don't try and guilt trip someone to your point of view with integrity. The Integrity backpack is DOA. |
What is intriguing about this back and forth is we seem to be stuck on the judgment call of what is sick or not.
that is entirely not the issue for this group. we don't have the numbers....but my guess is the sick leave utilization of the pilot group is not exceptionally out of line with other employees....or employees industry wide. every aspect of our employment contract that has an associated cost to the company is part of our earned compensation. that includes sick leave. the decision on the use of that 'compensation' is left to the individual employee. as union members...our primary concern should NOT be the associated cost to management of any discretionary component part of our working agreement....but instead if or not any member is using aspects of the pwa inappropriately to abrogate seniority and disadvantage the earning opportunities of other members. As well as undermine the protections of our collective bargaining agreement. once upon a time I was in a category where senior pilots utilized the swap with friends to organize an effort to end run seniority as well as the protections of our CB agreement. trip parking had allowed these pilots to raid the open time....and end up flying 100+ hours a month for STRAIGHT TIME. Preventing this kind of corrosion to the value of the craft is job one for any union. what was truly concerning was the reaction of the scheduling 'guru' (who is now on the NC)....first answer was "that cant happen"....but once provided the tangible evidence...seemed to entirely miss how this practice ran contrary to any collective welfare unions were founded to protect. I don't care why you call in sick. I don't care how much it is 'costing' the company. But if you are calling in sick to manipulate your schedule to the (economic/seniority) detriment of other pilots in your category...as a union member...I find the practice despicable. |
Originally Posted by BobZ
(Post 2004655)
What is intriguing about this back and forth is we seem to be stuck on the judgment call of what is sick or not.
that is entirely not the issue for this group. we don't have the numbers....but my guess is the sick leave utilization of the pilot group is not exceptionally out of line with other employees....or employees industry wide. every aspect of our employment contract that has an associated cost to the company is part of our earned compensation. that includes sick leave. the decision on the use of that 'compensation' is left to the individual employee. as union members...our primary concern should NOT be the associated cost to management of any discretionary component part of our working agreement....but instead if or not any member is using aspects of the pwa inappropriately to abrogate seniority and disadvantage the earning opportunities of other members. As well as undermine the protections of our collective bargaining agreement. once upon a time I was in a category where senior pilots utilized the swap with friends to organize an effort to end run seniority as well as the protections of our CB agreement. trip parking had allowed these pilots to raid the open time....and end up flying 100+ hours a month for STRAIGHT TIME. Preventing this kind of corrosion to the value of the craft is job one for any union. what was truly concerning was the reaction of the scheduling 'guru' (who is now on the NC)....first answer was "that cant happen"....but once provided the tangible evidence...seemed to entirely miss how this practice ran contrary to any collective welfare unions were founded to protect. I don't care why you call in sick. I don't care how much it is 'costing' the company. But if you are calling in sick to manipulate your schedule to the (economic/seniority) detriment of other pilots in your category...as a union member...I will help the company put the noose around your neck and personally will have no problem pulling the lever. |
not saying that at all. I don't care why any pilot calls in sick.
the individual is the only one who can also know with certainty the intended result of that event. what an individual who is engaging in schedule manipulation via sick leave use should also know is....they are likely doing so at a cost to OTHER PILOTS seniority and earnings opportunities....and as a union members that is about the lowest of the low. |
Originally Posted by BobZ
(Post 2004677)
not saying that at all. I don't care why any pilot calls in sick.
the individual is the only one who can also know with certainty the intended result of that event. what an individual who is engaging in schedule manipulation via sick leave use should also know is....they are likely doing so at a cost to OTHER PILOTS seniority and earnings opportunities....and as a union members that is about the lowest of the low. |
point taken and duly modified.
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Great news again, from the company needing bankruptcy based pilot pay and benefits to make it all happen. :rolleyes: Lets give more concessions!
Delta Air Lines, Inc. - Delta Reports Financial and Operating Performance for October 2015 Delta Air Lines higher after load factor dazzles - Delta Air Lines, Inc. (NYSE:DAL) | Seeking Alpha |
Originally Posted by Hank Kingsley
(Post 2004588)
Mission oriented boy scout becomes airline pilot. MBA's eat you guys for breakfast while you're willing to give away the store to help fix his "problems". An industrial labor relations specialist wildest dream!
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Originally Posted by Xray678
(Post 2004384)
I have no problem with the concept of sick leave changes that target the actual abusers.
You definitely must be a fourth floor type... certainly NOT a union member. A union does NOT make changes to it's contract to "target" alleged sick leave "abusers"! Delta has all the tools today to pursue any pilot they suspect of abuse... It is the unions job to REPRESENT that pilot. That is unionism 101! Sheesh! |
Originally Posted by TexanDriver
(Post 2004883)
Probably why the airlines like to hire so many prior mil. "Gotta hack the mish no matter the costs."
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Originally Posted by TexanDriver
(Post 2004883)
Probably why the airlines like to hire so many prior mil. "Gotta hack the mish no matter the costs."
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There are plenty of "nexGen" mil guys who cut their teeth wearing reflective belts in the ME..who couldn't get a new desert flight suit approved due to budget issues. Meanwhile, their base dropped 6 figures to entertain a gaggle of generals or fund a band.
Those guys know the score. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 2004998)
There are plenty of "nexGen" mil guys who cut their teeth wearing reflective belts in the ME..who couldn't get a new desert flight suit approved due to budget issues. Meanwhile, their base dropped 6 figures to entertain a gaggle of generals or fund a band.
Those guys know the score. Nice job including the disco belts! |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 2004998)
There are plenty of "nexGen" mil guys who cut their teeth wearing reflective belts in the ME..who couldn't get a new desert flight suit approved due to budget issues. Meanwhile, their base dropped 6 figures to entertain a gaggle of generals or fund a band.
Those guys know the score. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi-3rbr9Pgw |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 2004998)
There are plenty of "nexGen" mil guys who cut their teeth wearing reflective belts in the ME..who couldn't get a new desert flight suit approved due to budget issues. Meanwhile, their base dropped 6 figures to entertain a gaggle of generals or fund a band.
Those guys know the score. |
Who cares how ex military guys vs civilian guys feel? We're all united, a big melting pot. This seems to be the only place where your service to the country labels someone. Bad idea. Drop it.
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SW rejected their TA today 62-38
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Originally Posted by Hank Kingsley
(Post 2005421)
Who cares how ex military guys vs civilian guys feel? We're all united, a big melting pot. This seems to be the only place where your service to the country labels someone. Bad idea. Drop it.
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Originally Posted by Dirtdiver
(Post 2005457)
SW rejected their TA today 62-38
I guess we will know that they are having a "slow down" when they only taxi at V1 vs. the normal V2. :) |
Originally Posted by TexanDriver
(Post 2005469)
This has absolutely zero to do with mil vs civilian. It's more of about those that were once in leadership roles that could be more inclined to agree with management's desires, i.e. supposed "sick leave abuse", or at least see thru a similar lense as mgmt.
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Originally Posted by TexanDriver
(Post 2005469)
This has absolutely zero to do with mil vs civilian. It's more of about those that were once in leadership roles that could be more inclined to agree with management's desires, i.e. supposed "sick leave abuse", or at least see thru a similar lense as mgmt.
Clearly, in the military there are stupid rules that define stupidity. However, you see some of that carried over to the for profit sector as well. Disco belts always lost you cool points whenever they were present. But, anytime you're on a ramp overseas, you're supposed to wear a reflective vest, day or night...in Japan, there's a guy posted at every plane to check that you're wearing it. How's that for your life defining work. Everyone gets a vote. It's up to them to make it educated. |
Originally Posted by finis72
(Post 2005481)
The ones that were in leadership roles usually worked harder and more successfully to get into those positions. So what you are saying is you want less successful people in leadership positions ? 😀
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Originally Posted by finis72
(Post 2005481)
The ones that were in leadership roles usually worked harder and more successfully to get into those positions. So what you are saying is you want less successful people in leadership positions ? 😀
I think the point may be that we are pilots. Those that had "leadership" jobs at their former employment can tend to think that they are too good to just be a pilot. Not all, just some. We are all civilian pilots now. |
Originally Posted by Army80
(Post 2005571)
We are all civilian pilots now. Just turning a screw on the assembly line. It's a fun screw though. I don't mean screw screw though. A screw. The type you insert in... screw it. |
Originally Posted by TexanDriver
(Post 2005469)
This has absolutely zero to do with mil vs civilian. It's more of about those that were once in leadership roles that could be more inclined to agree with management's desires, i.e. supposed "sick leave abuse", or at least see thru a similar lense as mgmt.
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Originally Posted by Hank Kingsley
(Post 2005653)
I apologize if I jumped to a conclusion.
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Originally Posted by Klondike Bear
(Post 2005554)
Unfortunately nowadays, most of the people in leadership positions in the Air Force are there because they worked harder at brown nosing than everybody else. The Guard and the reserves are a lot better, but even in the Guard they sometimes promote the yes man over the better officer. The really good leaders get fed up and leave. I have not seen this issue with the leadership at Delta but it seems to happen with ALPA to a lesser scale.
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Originally Posted by Indy
(Post 2005746)
That's funny...I thought my career was finished at least a dozen times after speaking truth to generals or WG/CCs! I later learned that some that I argued with in public were the very ones who pushed my career much farther than I ever intended and put me into multiple leadership positions. They craved the feedback and dialectic nobody else was ballsey enough to give. You just had to make dang sure you were right before you opened your mouth.
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Originally Posted by Indy
(Post 2005746)
That's funny...I thought my career was finished at least a dozen times after speaking truth to generals or WG/CCs! I later learned that some that I argued with in public were the very ones who pushed my career much than I ever intended and put me into multiple leadership positions. They craved the feedback and dialectic nobody else was ballsey enough to give. You just had to make dang sure you were right before you opened your mouth.
In Message to Wing Commanders, Welsh Declares "Zero Privacy" Doctrine For All Airmen - John Q. Public and SAPR meetings/briefings galore because apparently we're all guilty of sexual harassment. But back to the TA! Life is definitely better on this side of the fence.:) |
Originally Posted by pileit
(Post 1998347)
Not ONE pilot has been able to explain what they EXPECT to get out of a new and improved deal with DAL. Just a LOT of bad ass chest thumping.What raises? (%) What retirement? (%) What Profit Sharing? (%) What sick leave (I hope to keep the C12 setup) and just as important, when do you expect this to occur and what are the odds of this happening?We also need a plan to make this happen, just WANTING something is not a plan...
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