New TA
 

I'm just curious, with over 8,000 no voters surely someone can give me their take as to how this TA will play out. Not ONE pilot has been able to explain what they EXPECT to get out of a new and improved deal with DAL. Just a LOT of bad ass chest thumping.

What raises? (%) What retirement? (%) What Profit Sharing? (%) What sick leave (I hope to keep the C12 setup) and just as important, when do you expect this to occur and what are the odds of this happening?

We also need a plan to make this happen, just WANTING something is not a plan...

Sorry, more if a lurker, but let the new guy take this one. Do you normally post comments without doing any research? take the 5 minutes of your life you just wasted posting this, and look through the threads, there are many many many examples. Then come back here with a point (I.e agree/disagree).... "Chest thumping" that's rich coming from someone who doesn't even attempt to find their own answer.

In the time it took you to be sarcastic & condescending you could have typed a reply to the question instead. How about just facts and answers instead of sarcasm. You are making my point for me. So...you don't have an answer I take it?

I think it's been made pretty clear, actually, by the election of a new MEC chairman who has publicly stated that restoration is the goal. In case you are not familiar, all DL employees have been made whole since bankruptcy and then some, with one exception- the pilots. Management has far exceeded restoration, and the shareholders are getting huge payouts. Billions are being spent on stock buybacks. The pilots want a contract that approximates the value of the contract they had before bankruptcy. It doesn't have to be an exact copy. But it needs significant improvement from what was in the TA to approach that level.

Cheers mate! Well said.

Thanks, I am very familiar with the give backs I have lived through them all along with stagnation. Not fun. I ALSO want restoration. BUT I am truly curious what NO voters believe we can actually achieve. That continues to be an elusive question...what numbers do you need to see for a YES vote? Thanks.

Pileit,

Yes, I understand it's frustrating. And slow. And inefficient. Just like our democratic Republic system. But union representation and the contract negotiation process exists as a series of checks and balances to protect us - chiefly from the Company, but also from ourselves, and sometimes our leaders. Sure, it's sometimes ugly tedious, but ultimately it's for our own safety.

So, yes, while it seems we are deep into the "process", in reality we haven't even reached the amenable date, which is in December, so an effort to re-group now and organize a proper re-attack will pay dividends long into the future. Rushing into the process without the appropriate plan is what got us into this slightly sticky mess.

We'll take as much time as we need to do it right.

Again, restoration is MY goal too. But we didn't have profit sharing back in C2K as well as a number of other items. What will it take today including profit sharing to be considered "restoration"?

I am not suggesting rushing it at all...I also want to get it right. BUT since July 1st I have lost $8k plus retirement of 15% on that (which is fine if a MUCH better deal is on the way).

The question continues to be (referring to your last sentence) How much time? And what % constitutes "doing it right"? Those are very nebulous goals. I don't know how you meet those goals without numbers attached to them...thanks.

You might find that the thousands of employees at Delta who saw their jobs eliminated and were given the choice of no job or work for DGS or DSS or the name of the month for outsourcing would disagree with you on being made whole.
You might also take a look at the retirement program they now have verses what they had before chapter 11.

There is no number - it's the whole package, which includes QOL issues and productivity concessions.


The big picture was our Union went into an expedited negotiation, lulled into a false sense of security, and expected a gentlemanly agreement where each side asks for +10% over what they expect to settle at, then meet in the middle.


The problem was the Company asked +80% over, and if we stay in the process, now we end up meeting at -35% under. We let ourselves get bamboozled.

Possibly, but let's keep it on topic. I am curious how many posts will occur before even one person puts up some "YES" vote numbers and sick leave demands. I have been seeking this answer for 6 months without a single answer.

I MUST assume that if someone voted NO that they had in mind what would cause them to vote YES. What is the answer to that?

How much were the concessions worth that you were willing to give away for that meager raise? You guys who keep touting the money lost always fail to figure in the concessions. Hence you were in the minority. The rest of us seem to be better at math.

There absolutely IS an answer. What package including QOL, sick, retirement and pay increases would garner a YES vote from you? You should be able to type those answers in 2 minutes.

Again, you haven't "lost" anything. If so, you conveniently ignore what you were about to lose.

Therein lies the problem with counting your chickens before they hatch; especially when they're sitting in a nest with a bunch of alligator eggs. When those hatch, not only will they eat all of your chickens, they'll come after you!

Sailing, even for you, that statement is beyond the pale. Were you furloughed as a pilot from Delta? Were those pilots offered jobs at our subsidiaries? You more than anyone should be aware that the pilots sacrificed more than any other group. The amount of managers and VP's has increased tenfold here at Delta, the advancement opportunities for those folks has outpaced the stagnation that we've seen in our department. And finally, how many of the other employees make DL a career compared to the pilot group? You can say what you want, but the pilots have been left out in the cold with respect to what we had and what we gave up. Not even close.

All our furloughed pilots are back. Those ground employee jobs are gone forever. A slight difference.

LOL, I hear ya...but we DID lose that because it was on the table waiting for a box to be checked. If it was a fictitious then I agree with you. All these side conversations are likely NEVER going to elicit a response to my original question. I am sure we will be off down a tangent LONG before anyone addresses the original question.

We all have our own numbers and as a group, the NC has that info via the pre TA survey. The 65% no vote on NA15 substantiated that data, as the contract was short of the survey results and it was voted down. Personally, I have enough patience to wait 2-3 years for what I consider a fair contract. During that time, I will be saving every profit sharing check and building my personal strike fund.


In a nutshell, here is your answer

RESTORATION of pay rates to pre bankruptcy rates.
Leave all concessions out of our work rules.
RESTORATION of the value of vacation.
Adjust per diem to GSA published rates
RESTORATION of pay for training events.
The company pays for training inefficiency associated with a diverse fleet.


Back to the operating room, I have a rocket waiting...

All our furloughed pilots are back. Those ground employee jobs are gone forever. A SLIGHT DIFFERENCE
If however we as pilots feel that the ground employees and F/A's should be our benchmark then let's go to management and demand the same relative standard of pay and productivity relative to the competition the ground employees are getting. We will have a contract done in days and a incredibly happy management team.

10% DOS, 5% in each of the out years - minimum, I would prefer if they matched FedEx and took a hard look at SWA 737 rates and extrapolate for our long haul ops.

Profit Sharing - keep your hands off it. If it must be monetized, it comes AFTER any raise not in lieu of one. No more "cost neutral" contracts.

Sick leave - leave it alone, add in the gains from TA15 (FAA leave and disability gains)

Retirement - 1% more for each year of the contract

QOL - training, vacation and Min day should all be 6 hours. If I do anything for the company, I get 6.

There are other things and here is where I'll diverge from others, I can be paid like the execs - stock, options etc to keep if from the other employee groups and WS.

Now the tough part, how to get it. We've done the first item, let them know their offer wasn't good enough but they have to realize what we do for the operation to keep them reliable and on time - on the base visit video Network says they view that as a product. Further we'll need to start being aggressive - start informational ads and perhaps picketing. We also can't allow the company to keep spinning things like the FedEx TA without a response. Where was our outraged answer to Mr Anderson's threat of 3 July?

I voted no. I will tell you what gets my yes vote and what I will say of polled.

20% raise day one and at least 4 every year.
No change to sick leave.
No rotations removed from FO bid pack.
No reduction in leverage for future contracts do not change 3.B.4
Do not reduce scope in any way.
If we are going to trade profit sharing we need to do it after section 6.
The only think I would be willing to negotiate about is the payrates. The others are one issue no votes for me.

I will wait as long as it takes to get it right.

The part time rampers that left I'm sure said 'No Thanks' to the offer! Is your career portable? And don't try to deflect into 'relative to the competition'. Restoration is about what we HAD. What we MADE. Say it again... RESTORATION. We are the most profitable and successful airline in the history of the known universe. You want to talk productivity? How are those 90 hour months treating you? When did we have those in C2K? Puhleez...

Also, do you have any idea how many of those DGS jobs are now staffed by RETIRED DL employees? That's right... they got their pensions, retirement bonuses, and are staying on the payroll! Sweet deal! How about the CASH CARDS that the FA's get for doing well on surveys that WE are a part of? Have you recently gotten any cash from the company? Me neither!

Hands off the profit sharing. :mad:No one I know asked for it to be "monetized."

ABSOFU¢kINGLUTELY!

I don't want them to touch it at all, but the last TA not only monetized it, they tried to call it a raise when it wasn't just like they just did for the non-contract employees!

Well, Pileit, you have three or four direct answers to your original question, sans "chest-thumping". What say you?

He just signed up for APC this month and has 7 posts. Maybe we are going back to the table.

Sailing. They have been outsourcing ground employees ever since the merger. That has nothing to do with us.

Man you are obtuse.

We had a pension in C2K.

The "profit sharing" was a bone tossed in during the exiting of BK as a sweetener for HANDING OVER our pension.

It was never projected to pay at the levels we now see.

So, now, you want to give it back???

Include it in the restorative numbers???

You' re simply shortsighted and laughable to come here and suggest that.

No concessions, better work rules. 6 hour minimum days. Less outsourcing, period. 35-40% pay-raise in 3 years would be minimum. A "plan" to make sure we get at least 60% FAE in retirement, guaranteed. Better medical coverage.

WORK LESS, MAKE MORE. That should be the goal of any UNION. When you start working extremely efficient like we are (ie working our a$$es off) the wheels start falling off, safety becomes an issue. We need to throttle back our work hours, we are not machines. At this current rate our Sick calls and incidents will increase.

TEN

All of a sudden the profit forecast becomes favorable for the employees and all management can do is lose sleep on trying to figure out techniques to deprive us from the very thing they promised us as they stole our work-rules and pensions. INDIAN GIVERS(sorry for the not politically correct saying).

Shame on them :mad:

TEN

No, it wasn't. Do some homework and report back.

Vacation and training = minimum day pay+credit. No more large RJs. Hands off PS. Minimum 14% DOS for starters plus retro. 401 contribution at DOS. No increase in ALV.

Just a few off the top of my head

You come across as a management or Dalpa troll fishing for the 51 percent number to get the next TA to pass. Sorry, but you should know by now that we don't announce the results of surveys around here because it damages our negotiating position with the company. (Tic) so to answer your question....Restoration.....and we will know it when we see it. No sales job required. Your welcome.

I never got in on the PS, however I sincerely wish you my pension when you retire.

I'm sorry, am I taking crazy pills? Or has all this been said many times over on this site for the last 6 months. Restoration is the key to air power bro...for me? I'm just a new guy and am happy to sit at the kids table

A lot have lost millions, not that your number is chump change.

There is a whole parade of new screen names here trying to insult, beg, or trick us into folding up.

Make no mistake, they're the same old guard clowns we're trying hard to remove from ALPA work forever.

First Off welcome to APC.

As you said - there are 8000+ "No votes" so probably 8000 different answers. Do you really care what any individual wants or are you just Trolling?

There is no consensus other than TA-15 was a total fail.

Additionally, I missed the part on the TA where if we voted no we were required to each individually input a Plan B.

Perhaps our union, which all put a lot of money into, should have had a plan other than we just vote yes. :cool:



Scoop

Preview http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...cons/icon1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowplay http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
No, it wasn't. Do some homework and report back.

It was negotiated along side LOA 51. Its a payback mechanism. It may not say exactly what it was for but it along with 3.B.4. were seeds planted for this very situation.

If you would quit looking in the rearview mirror and chastising people you might have time to turn around and see the pile of cash in the road right in front of you that you are about to plow into. Unless you'd rather yank the wheel and send us into the ditch saving us from the collision with billions.

From 2008.

08-04
August 6, 2008
In this MEC Update, we will discuss the Pilot Shares (equity stake) that were negotiated as part of Letter 19 and review the Profit Sharing Plan which was negotiated as part of Letter 51. While both of these items were negotiated in advance of the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement, each represents an important component of pilot compensation.
Profit Sharing
The current Profit Sharing Program was negotiated as part of Letter 51. In Letter 19, the program was modified so that the level at which the profit sharing payout changed from 15 percent to 20 percent of pre-tax income changed from $1.5 billion to $2.5 billion to reflect the larger scale of the merged corporation. The Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement is based on the current Delta Pilot Working Agreement inclusive of Letter 19, so it retains the Profit Sharing Plan as an important component of pilot compensation.
The Profit Sharing Plan is based on Delta’s pre-tax income or “PTIX” for a given calendar year. As defined by the Delta Pilot Working Agreement, PTIX means: § Letter 19, paragraph E.4.
3
4
“ . . . for any calendar year, the Company’s consolidated pre-tax income calculated in accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles in the United States and as reported in the Company’s public securities filings but excluding: a) the line item entitled “Reorganization Items, Net” as reported in the statement of income, b) all asset write downs related to long term assets, c) gains or losses with respect to employee equity securities, d) gains or losses with respect to extraordinary, one-time or non-recurring events, and e) expense accrued with respect to the profit sharing plan.”
In layman’s terms, the Profit Sharing Plan uses pre-tax income as a trigger for determining payouts and further restricts the write offs that might otherwise reduce the pre-tax income metric resulting in a “clean,” not easily manipulated dollar value from which to determine profit sharing payouts.
Figure 2 shows a summation of the relevant PWA language as modified by Letter 19.
Profit Sharing Plan Eligibility Pilot and non-pilot employees of the Company generally, except for management employees covered by incentive compensation plans. PTIX Levels % of PTIX Paid under Program $0 to $2.5 billion 15.0% Payout Calculation Over $2.5 billion 20.0% Program Year Calendar year.
Basis of Individual Award
Individual employee’s annual compensation in the year in which the PTIX was earned as a percentage of total annual compensation for that year for all eligible employees. The Association will have the right to review the methodology and calculation of awards prior to such awards.
Timing of Payment
Award to be paid within 30 calendar days after the date on which the Company’s annual audited consolidated financial statements are released (typically, March 15th). Pensionable Yes Type of payment Cash Impact of Termination of Employment A former pilot whose employment has been severed for any reason, including retirement, resignation or termination for any reason, will receive, at the same time as pilots, an award based on his annual compensation for the period in which he earned such compensation, as will the estate or designated beneficiary of a deceased pilot who earned such compensation. -Figure 2-
It is easy, using the Payout Calculation row in Figure 2, to determine the total profit sharing amount or pool that the company will provide to all employees once PTIX is determined at year’s end. To determine an individual pilot’s profit sharing payout, we need to know his eligible annual compensation in the year in which the PTIX was earned and the total annual compensation for that year for all eligible employees. We would then multiply the profit sharing pool by the ratio of the pilot’s eligible compensation to the eligible compensation of all profit sharing participants to determine the pilot’s individual profit sharing amount. Put in simpler terms, every pilot will receive a pro rata amount of the total profit sharing pool based on his eligible earnings in the year PTIX was earned.
Since it is not possible to definitively determine how many employees will participate in the fixed amount of profit sharing or what the eligible earnings for those tens of thousands of employees will be in a given year until the year is over, it is difficult to provide an answer to the question, “If Delta makes $X billion in pre-tax income, how much will I receive in profit sharing?”
That said, the following is provided as a non-precise example of how profit sharing could work in a given year. In this example, assume Delta earned a PTIX of $1.5 billion.
Delta would provide employees with total profit sharing of $225 million ($1.5B x 15% = $225 million). As a rough rule-of-thumb, pilot payroll represents approximately one-third of the company’s total payroll. Using that figure in this example, the pilot portion of profit sharing would be one-third of $225 million, or $75 million.
Assume that in the merged corporation, there are 12,000 pilots and that the average pilot’s earnings in this example year are $137,000. The average profit sharing payout in this example would be $6,250 ($75M ÷ 12,000 = $6,250) per pilot. For purposes of this Update, we will consider a hypothetical pilot who earned $100,000. This hypothetical pilot would receive a profit sharing payout of 100/137ths of the average, or $4,562 as shown in Figure 3. Note that this amount represents a profit sharing payout of 4.562 percent of eligible earnings, and in this example the company would provide the same 4.562 percent profit sharing payout to all eligible employees.

One Billion per year... that would be a reasonable start at true RESTORATION.

It is completely doable given our company's financials.

Oh, and NO CONCESIONS

And DO NOT TOUCH PS!

PERIOD!