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Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1999352)
So, the role of the negotiating committee is to avoid all concessions and argue for pay raises.
They can use 3B4 (since the company already agreed to it) as the baseline and add the non contract pay raise to that. File the civil suit first (forget the toothless grievance). They also need to make the argument that profit sharing should be left out of the calculus, balanced against the annuitized value of Americans frozen retirement, or whatever keeps it off the table. Sick leave and work rules will be status quo. There's zero compelling argument to pattern those down. There should be a viable argument for an annuity in the individual pilots name (to avoid any loss) due to profitability and the shaky ground the pbgc is on. 2.5% accrual per year based on pilot earnings that year 100% funded starting in 2016. Averts any danger of loss. Daily pay rate for everything (vac, trng, etc.) and accrual matches fedex since our profits were 2x theirs. Anything else. Btw, this is not my dream list. This seems readily achievable to me through mediation. My dream list is restoration plus...achievable by a job action. But, we already agreed to mediation. |
Originally Posted by El10
(Post 1999406)
You think you can get that all in mediation? Maybe with a release coming it will happen. Which board mediators have ever been shown to allow a one sided negotiation that lead to a TA? Not to say you should not seek those gains, but better plan on taking it to the next step.
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Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 1999409)
All he has asked for is a pay raise and not to take concessions. This is not shooting for the moon.
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Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1999341)
But, serious question, didn't we already agree to mediation in March? . I really don't see how it is a bad thing and it may be a good thing. If the company really wants to get a deal, they can when we re-engage. If a deal is close when the time to apply rolls around, I'm sure an LOA could be reached to delay application. If not, I think it's better to get into mediation sooner. It's one of the steps we have to go through in the process. It's unavoidable so why not get into it ASAP? Denny |
Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 1999409)
All he has asked for is a pay raise and not to take concessions. This is not shooting for the moon.
Denny |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 1999418)
Jointly agreeing to apply for mediation in March after a Dec. 31 amendable date has been part of our contract for a couple of cycles now.
I really don't see how it is a bad thing and it may be a good thing. If the company really wants to get a deal, they can when we re-engage. If a deal is close when the time to apply rolls around, I'm sure an LOA could be reached to delay application. If not, I think it's better to get into mediation sooner. It's one of the steps we have to go through in the process. It's unavoidable so why not get into it ASAP? Denny There's nothing special about mediation. Its just another hoop we have to jump through. In fact, its pretty much pointless. As I've said before; ever since the industry "consolidated" there is no chance that there will ever be a pilot strike at any of the big 4 airlines. The NMB is irrelevant. By never allowing "self-help" and conducting negotiations for years and years beyond amendable dates, they have taken themselves out of the game. The sooner we realize that fact the better off we will be. Here's an old post from before the TA got rejected and all the turmoil struck DALPA: shiznit was making the same DALPA argument that pileit made to open this thread. ie= We have to cooperate with management and take whatever they offer or we won't get another contract for years and years. I don't agree. I think we have other ways to operate. The NMB is only relevant because management AND THE UNION find them useful as a scarewcrow to keep pilots under control.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 1897969)
Shiznit-
I don't know what's in this TA and therefore can't tell you if I'm for it or against it. But I do know one thing. The argument you make in that post really irritates me. I'm mighty tired of my union being 100% passive, compliant and scared. Scared of Anderson, scared of the NMB and scared of their own shadow. And what's worse is using that fear as a weapon to control the membership. We are not SWA or FDX or AMR. There are plenty of things we can legally do to exert pressure on management to bargain in good faith. They seem to place great value on their success at taking labor risk off the table at Delta. The first thing we could do is start acting like a real union and put that risk right back on the table. FAST. And in a BIG WAY. If this TA were to be rejected and Mr. Anderson stops bargaining in good faith and says he's going to go the "traditional route" (putting us "on ice" for years) the first thing we should announce is that we are putting him on ice and making it the #1 goal of ALPA to organize and unionize the flight attendants and mechanics and every other labor group on this property. ALPA has had an official policy of letting the other employee groups twist in the wind while incompetent organization drives sputtered and stalled and failed. That policy of helping management defeat the other unions would end immediately. And you know what? I think we would succeed. We could have about 3 more unions at this company within a year. I think that might get management's attention. And that would only be the first thing I would do. There's about 8 more. So please knock it off with the "fear factor" posts -- telling pilots that if we don't capitulate to management's every wish then we will have to wait years to get a new contract. Its not true. We are NOT helpless. We CAN say no to management demands without getting put on ice. I know ALPA doesn't want to abandon Moakism and the whole constructive relationship with management. Its been good for ALPA. It saves them a lot of money. But there comes a point when the pilots might have to stand up and defend ourselves. Whether ALPA likes it or not. We may have reached that point. We'll see on Tuesday. |
I agree with Tim Parker. Here is a quote from Tim from the mini roar from the spring of 2008.
“While the Railway Labor Act is a much amended, complicated beast, the real substance behind it is not. The Act was put in place to prevent the disruption of passenger and freight service in the United States caused by disputes between railroads and their employees, and was later amended to cover airlines. Its weapon is time; unions representing employees are bound not to disrupt the status quo while the process continues. The process dictates goodfaith bargaining, followed by mediation and the eventual release to self-help if previous efforts fail. This is a very political process influenced greatly by whichever political party has control. During the tenure of the current president, the National Mediation Board, whose three members are appointed by the president, has released not one single major hub-and-spoke airline to self-help.” The current agreement provides for two ways to increase pay beyond the amendable date. 1) 3.B.4. ties our pay to the industry average. While management’s current tactics may delay the effectivity of this clause, they can’t eliminate it unless we agree to do so. The pay rate accumulation from other airlines will accrue while we are in negotiations. If management intends to hold our pay at current levels, that means they can never give an additional pay raise to non-contract employees. 2) 3.I is our profit sharing and ties our variable compensation to the profitability of Delta. This is key because it also aligns us with management’s goals and personal compensation. The payment is based on a percentage and is variable meaning it also increases automatically beyond the amendable date. The added benefit of not requiring further negotiations to increase the benefit allows for a continued share of the profits every year. If a year results in a loss, compensation costs remain in line with the rest of the industry because hourly rates would be the only expense. If the following year a profit is achieved, the profit sharing again pays a return automatically. To remove the effectivity of these clauses is to return to the punitive process section 6 has always been. We need mechanisms in the contract that reach beyond the amendable date to ensure a backstop for delay. 3.B.4. alone has the potential to raise pay rates by 2.5 times the current rate over a 30 year career without ever agreeing to change the current agreement. While this is not the plan, retaining this provision ensures we don’t lose ground to the industry average. We will automatically hit a single every year non-contract employees get a raise. Profit sharing continues beyond the amendable date and ties our pay to the profitability of the entire business. As Delta grows its equity holdings and JV operations we will become a smaller percentage of the operation generating profits. This keeps us relevant and compensated for the decisions to not expand organically. We have finally achieved a counter to the section 6 time penalty. These clauses should be vigorously defended and expanded. |
Originally Posted by El10
(Post 1999414)
Without even getting into how large or small of a raise he is saying that in the process of mediation you can get everything you want and the other party gets nothing. I have just never heard that happening in mediation.
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Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 1999525)
The yes voters are being myopic for just looking at the new TA. If you look at the last 10 years, it's an easy argument to the mediation board that we have already given more than enough. Add to that, every other group has been made whole since bankruptcy but the pilots and it's an even easier win.
THEN, you ask the NMB how much THEY make now, and what their retirement plans are worth today, compared to 2004. Then you announce to the Media the Delta Pilots WILL strike if we are not RESTORED to our Pre-Bankruptcy pay/retirement levels. Why are some of you Yes Men such cowards? (not you CaptCrunch, but some of the tools above) |
Everything about what has happened is undisputed. The question is if it has ever had influence with a mediator? No one is in disagreement on the changes that have occurred. Will the mediator weigh that more than ever before? I guess we will have to wait and see.
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Originally Posted by El10
(Post 1999597)
Everything about what has happened is undisputed. The question is if it has ever had influence with a mediator? No one is in disagreement on the changes that have occurred. Will the mediator weigh that more than ever before? I guess we will have to wait and see.
I don't give a schidt what the NMB thinks is reasonable, I want to go straight to Wall Street and the public, show them how much money our Management is still taking from us and giving to themselves with stock buybacks, while we are still being paid 18% BELOW 2004 rates, and oh yeah, no retirement plan! |
Originally Posted by pileit
(Post 1998372)
Again, restoration is MY goal too. But we didn't have profit sharing back in C2K as well as a number of other items. What will it take today including profit sharing to be considered "restoration"?
I am not suggesting rushing it at all...I also want to get it right. BUT since July 1st I have lost $8k plus retirement of 15% on that (which is fine if a MUCH better deal is on the way). The question continues to be (referring to your last sentence) How much time? And what % constitutes "doing it right"? Those are very nebulous goals. I don't know how you meet those goals without numbers attached to them...thanks. |
Originally Posted by El10
(Post 1999406)
You think you can get that all in mediation? Maybe with a release coming it will happen. Which board mediators have ever been shown to allow a one sided negotiation that lead to a TA? Not to say you should not seek those gains, but better plan on taking it to the next step.
Mediation just removes the concessions. |
Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1999341)
I'm with you.
But, serious question, didn't we already agree to mediation in March? The last stab by the Moakolytists. |
Just so everyone is on the same page here - we are talking about mediation, not arbitration. I think some people are confusing the two.
We were in mediation in C2000 if I remember correctly - and unless I am mistaken all it really does is slow things down. Does this sound about right? Scoop |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 1999640)
Just so everyone is on the same page here - we are talking about mediation, not arbitration. I think some people are confusing the two.
We were in mediation in C2000 if I remember correctly - and unless I am mistaken all it really does is slow things down. Does this sound about right? Scoop You are correct. NMB 'mediation" is nothing but another way to stall for time. Its absolutely meaningless. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1999606)
I want to see the company make a case to the NMB that they need more concessions, pilot funded pay raises, and reduced profit sharing, when they are making record profits every quarter and buying back billions in stock.:rolleyes:
I don't give a schidt what the NMB thinks is reasonable, I want to go straight to Wall Street and the public, show them how much money our Management is still taking from us and giving to themselves with stock buybacks, while we are still being paid 18% BELOW 2004 rates, and oh yeah, no retirement plan! |
Originally Posted by iceman49
(Post 1999692)
Wall Street and the public does not give a schidt, they only care about return and the public its about the price of a ticket. The only thing that gets both their attention is the dropping of backpacks.
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Originally Posted by pileit
(Post 1998372)
BUT since July 1st I have lost $8k plus retirement of 15% on that (which is fine if a MUCH better deal is on the way).
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain. - You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke. -- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost. -- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation). -- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips). - You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise." -- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips). - You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs. -- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there. I could continue and will at a later date. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 1999353)
That is why talk of a strike, different union, "restoration plus" and all is so hilarious. The process is stacked against us, and RA knows it. All the orange "swag" in the world won't change that any more than it changes the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.
"please sir, may I have some more"... :rolleyes: Or.... we get rid of the old guard union types, (know any of those?) and actually have a union again... You know, since we are making more PROFITS than during the entire history of manned flight! There can be only one choice for RESTORATION: Sam DeRosa 0961094 (Scott Martin write-in) Jimmy Johnson Chris Kern VOTE NOW! THEN tell three friends to vote the above ticket! |
Seriously, that's your argument for the TA? That logic is nonsense. Question, how many billions in profits before you'd say no concessions? 5, 7.5, 10, 15 billion. At what number do you say we want our pay rates, extra week of vacation we lost, paid APD, touching trips, a medical plan with some teeth, DC boost?
Scary that you're probably a Dalpa insider! |
Originally Posted by Flying Elvis
(Post 1999856)
Well, if you're going to count things that didn't exist as a loss, that's fair. We'll call it lost opportunity cost.
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain. - You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke. -- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost. -- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation). -- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips). - You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise." -- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips). - You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs. -- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there. I could continue and will at a later date. And a great example of the true trickle down effect of work rule concessions. |
Originally Posted by Flying Elvis
(Post 1999856)
Well, if you're going to count things that didn't exist as a loss, that's fair. We'll call it lost opportunity cost.
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain. - You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke. -- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost. -- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation). -- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips). - You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise." -- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips). - You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs. -- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there. I could continue and will at a later date. Just curious, are these the items you feel are so onerous on the medical records issue? A pilot who is required to verify his sickness under Section 14 F. 4. may be required to provide the Company with a written authorization for release of medical information (release), provided the release is limited to: 1. the specific sickness for which the pilot claimed sick leave, 2. the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave, and 3. a Company designated doctor or other health care professional(s) and the Director – Health Services and the Senior Vice-President of Flight Operations. Regardless of whether a pilot has a current First Class Medical Certificate, the Director – Health Services (DHS) may review the medical records of a pilot: a. who receives an FAA special issuance medical certificate, b. who seeks to return to flight duty after being absent for at least four months for medical reasons, or c. when there is reason to believe he may not meet the physical standards. 2. A pilot undergoing medical review under this section will give the DHS access to all medical records requested by the DHS. 3. The DHS may require a medical evaluation of a pilot holding a valid First Class Medical Certificate. This medical evaluation will be limited to the nature of the First Class Medical physical standard(s) in question. 4. The DHS and the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor will confer on the choice of the Company Medical Examiner (CME) prior to sending the pilot for evaluation, if the pilot releases the pertinent information to the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor. 5. The DHS will select the CME. 6. Medical information provided by the DHS to the CME will be limited to medically relevant information provided by doctors and treating facilities. |
Originally Posted by LivingTheDream
(Post 1999870)
Awesome... then logic would dictate that we dismantle the union, stop paying dues, line up on our knees, hold out our bowls and say:
"please sir, may I have some more"... :rolleyes: Or.... we get rid of the old guard union types, (know any of those?) and actually have a union again... You know, since we are making more PROFITS than during the entire history of manned flight! There can be only one choice for RESTORATION: Sam DeRosa 0961094 (Scott Martin write-in) Jimmy Johnson Chris Kern VOTE NOW! THEN tell three friends to vote the above ticket! And as a no voter (who would do the same again, despite what the "math guy" says) I still need to remind us all that we need to live in the real world. The NMB ultimately has a stranglehold on the process, a process which by design is meant to be slow, methodical, etc. That usually works against us. Occasionally it works in our favor when times are tough and we have a lucrative contract--then mgmt is the one bemoaning the slow "process." But more often than not the process is stacked against us. That doesn't mean that we don't negotiate strongly, and walk away if needed. But wearing orange, shouting "Restoration!" from the mountaintops (repeatedly) or making endless Facebook and message board posts really amounts to very little. At some point we need to acknowledge that there are two sides to any negotiation. The company's record profits are to our benefit negotiation-wise, but that doesn't mean we get everything we want any time we want, any more than the company gets everything they want when times are tough. For those who claim we gave up a lot in BK...they are totally correct. But if you saw the company's opener they wanted a whole lot more (which I have never forgotten, by the way, lest I get too pro-company in my thoughts). I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language. So the process is currently on a slower track right now. I know that at some point, hopefully by next summer, we will get a good agreement, and one that acknowledges both sides of the table. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 1999891)
You know, my original post was unnecessarily toxic, and I apologize for that. That is what you get when hastily typing stuff out on your phone.
And as a no voter (who would do the same again, despite what the "math guy" says) I still need to remind us all that we need to live in the real world. The NMB ultimately has a stranglehold on the process, a process which by design is meant to be slow, methodical, etc. That usually works against us. Occasionally it works in our favor when times are tough and we have a lucrative contract--then mgmt is the one bemoaning the slow "process." But more often than not the process is stacked against us. That doesn't mean that we don't negotiate strongly, and walk away if needed. But wearing orange, shouting "Restoration!" from the mountaintops (repeatedly) or making endless Facebook and message board posts really amounts to very little. At some point we need to acknowledge that there are two sides to any negotiation. The company's record profits are to our benefit negotiation-wise, but that doesn't mean we get everything we want any time we want, any more than the company gets everything they want when times are tough. For those who claim we gave up a lot in BK...they are totally correct. But if you saw the company's opener they wanted a whole lot more (which I have never forgotten, by the way, lest I get too pro-company in my thoughts). I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language. So the process is currently on a slower track right now. I know that at some point, hopefully by next summer, we will get a good agreement, and one that acknowledges both sides of the table. RESTORATION is not an unachievable long shot. It is a sensible request from a company making all time record profits, not just in its own history but the history of the entire industry. The rest of the employees of this company were restored long ago. Its about time we are as well! If there is such angst over the companies opener then let it be shown to the masses. We will reject it loud and clear for you. The starting point is not relevant. I could say our opener is to double our pay and be awarded stock options, full medical coverage until death, retirement at 60% FAE, and 50 days of flex time a year. Does that mean anything as an opener to the company? If I am asked what I would be willing to give up to achieve RESTORATION, my answer will be ALPA. If there is not a forceful effort to achieve what the pilots are willing to fight for now, during the best economic times the industry has ever seen, then there never will be. |
Herk, negotiations is certainly a 2 way street, but I argue the company already got what it needed - both in BK and now in this failed TA, by lowering our expectations to that of just holding on to what we have for dear life. I don't think protecting our work rules and asking for restoration of pay makes us greedy, I think that is exactly a fair deal considering what we will never get back. I understand the company's opener was quite ambitious, but we had a contract opener too, which was quote fair. Go back and take a look at how many of our contract opener goals we achieved... The answer is zero. We got not one thing we asked for. Now that's not what I call good faith negotiations
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Excuse me.
According to the former ALPA National President and former Del... I guess current Delta pilot, our contact is mature. You only change the fringe stuff. To my knowledge that statement has not changed. So restoration is more than fringe. Therefore ALPA National does not stand with you keyboard warriors. I don't have a solution, just pointing out an obvious problem. Kind of like having your union officers aspire to be in charge of your national Union that also represents those who the company outsources your work too. ^^^ Special Committee flaming flamebait. |
[QUOTE=Herkflyr;1999891]
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language. That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial. The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it. Scoop |
[QUOTE=Scoop;1999930]
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 1999891)
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language. That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial. The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire had anything to do with it. Scoop I think they were all wearing orange speedos too. |
[QUOTE=Scoop;1999930][QUOTE=Herkflyr;1999891]
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language. That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial. The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it. How ironic that our own union (old guard) is applying the age old management tactic of divide and conquer to retain their power. What happened to the Alpa tag line of strength in numbers and Unity? I guess that only applies when it furthers the Moakists agenda. There is no longer any doubt who side these tools are on. |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 1999930)
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it. Scoop http://lh3.ggpht.com/-aEkkNgpuFcQ/VE...gif?imgmax=800 |
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
(Post 1998811)
During contract negotiations, the forum resembles a Tweet ride -- lots of spinning and some unusual attitudes. :D
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I'm been trying to do the DALPA survey and it got me thinking. Both on here and ChitChat I see the discussion about restoration. But for someone fairly new like me, that did not directly experience the pre- and then post-BK days, what is considered restoration? What did you have that you wish you never gave up for pay raises? Even as someone fairly new to the industry, asking for and giving concessions in record breaking profits blows my mind. I also know that giving up QOL items for simple pay rates is irreversible, that once you give those up, you may never get them back. I'm just trying to gain an understanding of how far the industry has fallen, what you used to have, and what we could potentially gain on the next TA (if we can get the right people voted in). I do know this, for those 65% of you that voted "No," thank you. I've got over 20 years left here and appreciate you not pulling up the ladder and realizing that it's not only about the pay rates.
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Originally Posted by TexanDriver
(Post 1999995)
I'm been trying to do the DALPA survey and it got me thinking. Both on here and ChitChat I see the discussion about restoration. But for someone fairly new like me, that did not directly experience the pre- and then post-BK days, what is considered restoration? What did you have that you wish you never gave up for pay raises? Even as someone fairly new to the industry, asking for and giving concessions in record breaking profits blows my mind. I also know that giving up QOL items for simple pay rates is irreversible, that once you give those up, you may never get them back. I'm just trying to gain an understanding of how far the industry has fallen, what you used to have, and what we could potentially gain on the next TA (if we can get the right people voted in). I do know this, for those 65% of you that voted "No," thank you. I've got over 20 years left here and appreciate you not pulling up the ladder and realizing that it's not only about the pay rates.
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It's funny Herc, some of us are considered wacko's for shouting RESTORATION, yet it was totally reasonable during C2K... you know, when OUR union was asking us to rally around RESTORATION... from Contract 96... not from the draconian cuts we took in BK. (I am currently wearing my RESTORATION C2K tie pin.)
And we achieved monetary restoration when we were barely making a profit... So today we are making profits never before seen in the industry, and yet we have guys who are afraid to utter the word RESTORATION... this is beyond my abilities to comprehend. I say: FULL RESTORATION. NO CONCESSIONS. PERIOD! Sam DeRosa 0961094 (Scott Martin write-in) Jimmy Johnson Chris Kern |
Why are there so many smarta$$es on here?
If you are dumb enough to think I'm looking for a 51% vote then I won't even refute your post. Who would be looking for rock bottom? Yeah I'm negotiating against my own pay raise...you figured me out. I will say this....if you think you will get more than 20% DOS plus 4-5% raises per year, raises plus current profit sharing then I'd like to hear your plan to get it. It doesn't matter how much I want to buy a new corvette for $20k they will not sell it to me. It also doesn't matter if you want a 50% pay raise, that hasn't happened...ever. But I'll bet you are willing to hold out for it! Let's say we hold out 10 years and Delta laughs when they give you your 50% raise. That's 5%/year and the lost retirement inputs for annual increased wages, work rules will NEVER be recovered. Or we could negotiate 3-25% contracts during that time worth 75% increase with raises all along he way. You will still choose your 50% and think your ahead because you thumped your chest and held out for a huge number and they "agreed".
Originally Posted by ImTumbleweed
(Post 1998808)
I hope you're not negotiating for us...
I'm guessing you're negotiating against us. Just trying to figure out what you need to get the magic 51 percent to vote yes. Read the entire thread to see what the pilots demand as fair compensation. |
Where in this post do you see that I am not wanting to share in the profits? I ABSOLUTELY want C2k back as a starting point. Plus raise on top. We have lost a fortune to get nflatiin plus pension.
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
(Post 1999611)
You also had a pension with C2K. Don't feel so bad about sharing in the companies profits. When we aren't profitable you wont share this burden. So again, the goal is restoration. Everyone else is restored. Management more so than others. The industry doesn't need concessions to be profitable. Go get yourself an orange lanyard my friend.
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Originally Posted by pileit
(Post 2000021)
I will say this....if you think you will get more than 20% DOS plus 4-5% raises per year, raises plus current profit sharing then I'd like to hear your plan to get it. |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1999950)
Huh? Then what we're we doing that night? Whose house did we burn down??
http://lh3.ggpht.com/-aEkkNgpuFcQ/VE...gif?imgmax=800 Jordan Hare? :rolleyes: |
BECAUSE...nobody ever responds to what I actually write they post all this crap that I never typed and try to lecture me on restoration. I want restoration like everyone else. That is a nebulous goal is all I am saying. We never say what we actually want...and surprise, we never get it either. All I am saying is that yelling about restoration without a logical plan to get it is simply that yelling. No one here has mentioned any kind of a good plan and ALPA (is it okay with you to capitalize ALPA)? Certainly didn't have one. John Malone likely will have a good plan, we will see.
Originally Posted by Wuzatforus
(Post 1999342)
Why do you INSIST upon using ALL CAPS in every other sentence to make your POINT?
It's ANNOYING. |
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