No. You are only at the back of the list for trips that would be affected by the sick call. In other words, you are legal for any GS that you would have been legal for had you flown the trip. :)

Scoop

I don't think that's what the TA said. Not that I care what it said anymore.

Maybe, I am not sure. I am saying that would be a change that I could support.

Scoop

sick leave is an EASY fix:

1) 200% holiday pay
2) sick leave year resets on date of hire anniversary.

These two alone will fix the supposed sick leave abuse, although I truly believe there is no sick leave abuse. But this is a great way to call the company's bluff, offer to throw these two things in the PWA and watch them backpedal or come up with reasons why they cant "afford" it.

By the way, the majority of Delta pilots have 240 or more sick hours per year. The average sick usage is 80 hours per year. The company is making money on this deal. The average delta pilot gives 2/3rd of their sick time back to the company. Im not buying the SL abuse argument. ever.

The argument used to be that if they gave us 2x holiday pay, they would have to give to the flight attendants.

But, I guess that's not the case anymore since they seem to be ok with giving them a raise in order to work around a provision in our contract.

So be it. You are right. I want 200% holiday pay, too. :rolleyes:

They will play "me too" in whatever direction benefits them. Sadly it never benefits organized labor-- their agenda.

Compass pays Holidays at an extra 4 hours a day and it helps getting more people who want those days off the chance to. A lot of trips that end on the holiday or leave late on a holiday such as Memorial day tend to go senior. Imagine if Delta paid that at 200% like GS. Would probably be a win-win for everyone.

If delta paid 200% holiday pay, you wouldn't be able to hold Christmas.

The F/A's do get holiday pay, just not 200%.

We used to get 3days a year, paid, for a personal drop. I was told we got it in exchange for working holidays. Lost it in bankruptcy, I believe. Would've been nice to get that back during historic profits...

Wait. Delta doesn't currently have any holiday pay!?

I agree. An easy compromise is to offer holiday/double pay. Also, another idea would be to offer paid time off (pto) like JetBlue. You can sell it back for 150% of current pay - not the pay when you accumulated it :). The key would be a higher acrual rate than JB. accumulate 13-14 hours per month as a 1st year guy, and let is increase to 15-17 hours per month.

No we lost that in the 96 contract.

I see...

So 1) You have appointed yourself judge and jury on this ONE individual... So you examined him/her and made your diagnosis?... Shweet!

And 2) If ONE person steps out of line, we completely change the contract and negatively effect the over 12,000 that are marching along in line...

No thanks.

At one time we got 5 paid APD days, then it was shortened to 3 paid days, then finally the 3 unpaid days we have now. Inflight, MX, Gate agents, in short, everyone -except- the pilots already gets 'Holiday Pay'.

Why that wasn't in the POS TA is beyond me, oh, but they did offer us a nickel more per hour per diem!:rolleyes:

Basically, it seems, the NC was given a 2% cost increase allowance. It's a number that RA mentioned the other day that 2% is the max they seek to hold down cost increases.

So, how do you make 2% into 8% up front plus 0/3/3? You pay for it in other places.

People like xray have done exactly what management intended: they bought off on a complete distraction, internalized it and are now on board with anything the company tells them. Its very sad to watch because it indicates a complete failure of independent thought. It also reveals two things:

1) We as pilots generally do not understand our self-worth. I am not sure how this happened, since we are mostly a Type-A bunch, but sometimes our machismo turns into cowardice the minute our strength is tested. This company propaganda is no exception. Having a backbone in this industry makes a big difference. People like xray need to show some backbone.

2) We trust management over our own pilots. When did this happen and why? This divide and conquer campaign by management failed. We are stronger than ever. They campaign continues with remarks of how stupid we were to vote no and how much money we left on the table. We kept our profit sharing, our scope, and our sick leave. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 8% and they know it, hence their frustration. We cant keep buying into the messages the company puts out. It serves their purpose. They've done nothing but extract from us and given nothing in return.

The minute they tried to take their own executive bonuses out of our PS in the new PTIX formula is the minute I confirmed that these are not good people. That level of selfishness coming from $10 to $20 Million a year executives is far more unacceptable than a handful of pilots abusing sick leave. And to me that's about as apples to apples of a comparison as you can get. And to hear a yes voter justify that attempt by management is very disturbing.

Please fellow pilots wake up and see what theyre doing to us.

Ghilis, please run for an LEC. You're clarity of thought and analysis and exactly what we need.

Yup, 2% is the magic number that RA always mentions to the Wall Street guys at the Earnings Calls. If that is an accurate number or not is debatable, but that's always the number he uses.

That and he'll also say any increase somewhere was offset by efficiencies elsewhere, basically we've been signing 'Cost Neutral' agreements, early, and the stock pop benefits the guys who get 90% of their pay in stock options.

Could you imagine if the BoD told RA he could only increase his compensation package 2% per year?

Hmm, since I dont think a pilot should be able to abuse sick leave to get a greenslip another pilot should have received I am buying into everything the company say? Wow quite the stretch.

Damn nice!

Youre implying that everyone who calls in sick and then subsequently calls in well, only to be then called by scheduling to cover a trip, is a sick leave abuser.


First of all, when calling in sick, you eventually have to call in well. Whether thats inside the original rotation footprint or not, makes no nevermind.

Second, picking up that trip at gs pay or otherwise is helping the company staff a trip and preventing a cancellation. You should be thanking that individual.

Instead you bought off on a baseless argument.

Delta pilots already have holiday pay - it's called a Greenslip.

Now before you all jump on me, just keep in mind that there are always unintended consequences to any action, or reaction. Just look at the Reserve Manning coverage for every month and you will notice that since we recently won the ability to move our x-days off, combined with the fact that holidays and weekends pay the same as normal days you will notice that all weekends and holidays invariably shift to minimum manning, while becoming over-staffed the next Mon-Thurs. THAT'S our contract at work: people bid what they want/can hold, and then swap/drop/shift days and trips to get closer to the ideal line they seek, all within the confines of the PBS and contract rules. Very flexible. Flexibility is valuable to us pilots. Essential, in fact, to a long career (...and to airpower...)

All of this generates a huge greenslip swell as the Company prefers min-staffing models to control cost, albeit at a slight risk premium. This Greenslip swell is rife with inefficiencies that many pilots can surf, at huge payoffs, depending on how much time you wish to spend tweaking the system. Or gives you the flexibility to enjoy your time off.

Offer holiday pay and this changes the entire manning system. And probably not for the better. This solves huge problems for the Company and makes us much more efficient. For less pay. Be careful of what you ask for, as sometimes we need to protect ourselves from ourselves.

This is another of those second- and third- order costs that we don't readily recognize that Management might be all to happy to jump on. Don't fall for the easy fodder. When someone offers you something for free, beware - they might just be after your wallet!

Good discussion, but I think the issue here is that you are viewing a holiday like it is a special day that currently enables everyone to fly at a premium. This is not the case, as generally speaking, block hours are sometimes as low as 60 percent less on a holiday than they are on other days for obvious reasons. Second, holiday pay does not magically solve staffing issues for the remainder of the month, and by your theory, all that would do is increase the amount of greenslips on other days of the month. So actually, by offering holiday premium pay, you end up in more money in the pilots pockets with more non-holiday greenslips. What holiday pay does do, however, is calls the company's bluff on sick leave usage. They believe sick calls go up on holidays. Call their bluff and stick holiday pay on there and watch them backpedal. They've already said no to holiday pay anyway since I think that was part of our contract opener...

Love it....

I am tired of eating Chinese on Christmas because its the only thing open while spending an extra long layover at a minimally staffed hotel because we don't fly much on the actual holiday, rather the shoulder days around it. If I knew during bidding it would earn me double pay, it might change my mind.

Well maybe not me but somebody. Now that I can hold good vacations and holidays off I've been told I will no longer miss Christmas with the kids. If half the crews have off while the other half is working this would definitely benefit more pilots than just the green slips.

Does anyone have the 1987 pay rates for pmDAL?

I never said they are all abusers. But abuse can and does take place. As I said, even if someone is really sick, I don't think they should be able to pick up a trip they couldn't have picked up had they flown instead of calling in sick. The trip will still be covered. Another pilot will get it.

You can bury your head in the sand if you want. Sick leave abuse does take place.we can argue about the amount, but it happens.

I have no problem with the concept of sick leave changes that target the actual abusers. I didn't like the TA, it went to far in that area and many others. If you don't like my opinion, oh well.

Why not get the sick leave, vacation data as well?

ftb-

Those were the old days. Speed, mileage, gross weight.

You can't easily convert that contract to compare with today's numbers.

The "rates" were per minute. Not per hour. Every pilot's per minute rate was the same. Then we got paid extra on top of the per minute rate based on aircraft speed, mileage flown per leg and aircraft gross weight.
There was also night pay and a relatively larger international override, etc. etc.

X.....your problem is not with sick leave 'abuse'. that really is inaccurate language to address what you are insinuating.

use of sick leave is never 'abuse' as it is an earned part of compensation. I don't care if your kid is sick, you are sick, or any other reason a pilot exercises their judgment they should not be at work.

calling in sick, is never 'abuse'.

Your issue is more precisely the suggested use of sick leave to intentionally manipulate a pilots schedule, presumably....and most importantly from our pov....to the detriment and potential abrogation of other pilots seniority rights in the category.

there are solutions far more effective to address this alleged practice than what was arrived at in the ta. the least of which is for management to adequately staff categories so that when a pilot utilizes their earned sick leave it does not create a cascading staffing shortage.

It is highly unlikely the pilot group would have anywhere near the heartburn with well thought out modifications to work rules that address what you are alleging than treating us all like criminals for availing ourselves of a hard earned part of our compensation.

PS...CE.....your formula applied...except for the first year. then you got $1800. period. I can tell you the fedex new hire pay rate in 1987 was what we are paying new hires now.

As long as sick leave was mentioned...

I just flew with a guy who was blowing his nose every 5 minutes and filling up each tissue with enough mucus to soak through it. He was also sucking on Halls drops the whole time and still hacking like a cat with a fur ball. Every time I touched a switch or the throttles I was sure I was picking up the plague or something.

I'm asking for a latex gloves from the flight attendants the next time that happens. My new call sign "Jacko" as in Michael Jackson, one glove on the left hand. Use your **** sick leave. If that's not abusive to your fellow pilots then I don't know what is.

I disagree strongly with what you are saying. Our sick leave balance is not--NOT--"part of our earned compensation." If that were the case we should all use--SHOULD use--our entire balance every year. But if you had a shred of integrity you would not, unless you truly had a bad year, which statistically should not happen a whole lot.

For whatever strange reason that still eludes me, DAL has always wanted this peculiar sick leave approach where you get a big balance every year, but it doesn't carry over. As I have posted before it is a lot like your car insurance. The insurance companies' models are such that the assumptions are that eventually most use some (fender benders), some use none (great, safe, or lucky drivers) and a few use it all (car is totaled). But no insurance company would last long if every driver used all their insurance up to their limits every year, year after year.

Call in sick--without hesitation--if you are sick and I will go so far as to say if your kid is sick, etc. I get it that some times you shouldn't be flying, even if your own personal health is ok.

You should not be calling in sick to turn a one week vacation into two, or you just feel like it.

I do agree that mgmt has somehow hijacked the issue to their own liking, and has us being defensive from the start. I am not sure that any of that is warranted.

You are totally correct. Guys somehow wearing a "badge of honor" about "never calling in sick" are abusers just as much as the other side.

And never forget that one of SD's very first weekly messages when he was new to the job in 07 or so was highlighting a new 777 we had just picked up. And flying it from SEA-ATL were two esteemed pilots who in more than 50 years of combined service had never once called in sick. He was as consumed with the issue then as now. Nothing new here.

You mean, we have more sick leave than anyone, but if you try to use it.......

So basically, we don't really have much sick leave. It's like getting paid in company dollars such that if you tried to buy anything you find out you really didn't have any.

so herk....sick leave is not included or detailed in our employment contract? And is not part of the calculus of pilot 'costs'?

Hmmm. ok. my mistake.

Trying to make sense of your disagreement am I to conclude because as pilots we do not annually use the full extent of medical insurance it is also not part of our earned compensation?

What's ridiculous is that FMLA can't be used against sick time. Wife have a baby and need time to be with them? That's gonna cost you (unless you have unused vacation or you're in the right state).

I experienced a significant tragedy a couple weeks ago, yet I couldn't call in sick for it (legally)... only FMLA... despite being clearly unfit to come into work.

It needs to be clear that the company in those situations behaves like a saint... absolutely incredible how they go out of their way to help. Just with the contract and the way FMLA works, sorry... you're out the money.

I'm one hundred percent with you. When my son at one year old was hospitalized with a life threatening illness, it's a personal drop which at that moment was a bunch of reserve days at the end of the month. Of course they're helpful but according to the FAA I'm not legal to work at that point anyways. So I don't know how much is benevolence vs doing what they're obligated to do. Anyways, it took me two years to pay the bank back on that one plus pay a rather large hospital bill. Thankfully we have the bank to use.

Calling in sick like other Delta pilots can do is not an option in RINO Georgia. I want this improved. I want a me too clause for the next guy.

Not to mention, if your wife gets breast cancer, maybe they ought to have a program that helps you out? I mean it's an easily verifiable thing. So maybe instead of painting things pink, we could put money in accounts to help employees deal with these family care issues without one iota of extra stress added to the mix. Wife have cancer? Child? Go home. Youre not fit to fly. Don't call in sick. No disability issue. We got you covered completely.

Or, we can just paint things pink and just tell everyone we care.

I stopped reading your post right there. If the COMPANY had a shred of integrity we'd have had restoration before 6 BILLION dollar buy backs & dividends. If the Company had a shred of integrity they wouldn't want us to take a PS cut while they change the formula to enrich themselves (yet again), if the Company had a shred of integrity they would've given the other employees pay raises 1/1/16 and the integrity list goes on and on.

I'll provide my services with the same level of integrity the company shows me, nothing more nothing less. It's a two way street.

Don't try and guilt trip someone to your point of view with integrity.


The Integrity backpack is DOA.

This is our entire society in a nutshell.