Originally Posted by pileit (Post 2000047)

BECAUSE...nobody ever responds to what I actually write they post all this crap that I never typed and try to lecture me on restoration. I want restoration like everyone else. That is a nebulous goal is all I am saying. We never say what we actually want...and surprise, we never get it either. All I am saying is that yelling about restoration without a logical plan to get it is simply that yelling. No one here has mentioned any kind of a good plan and ALPA (is it okay with you to capitalize ALPA)? Certainly didn't have one. John Malone likely will have a good plan, we will see.

Originally Posted by Doug Masters (Post 2000045)

Jordan Hare? :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1999886)

Just curious, are these the items you feel are so onerous on the medical records issue?

A pilot who is required to verify his sickness under Section 14 F. 4. may be required to provide the Company with a written authorization for release of medical information (release), provided the release is limited to: 1. the specific sickness for which the pilot claimed sick leave, 2. the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave, and 3. a Company designated doctor or other health care professional(s) and the Director – Health Services and the Senior Vice-President of Flight Operations.

Regardless of whether a pilot has a current First Class Medical Certificate, the Director – Health Services (DHS) may review the medical records of a pilot: a. who receives an FAA special issuance medical certificate, b. who seeks to return to flight duty after being absent for at least four months for medical reasons, or c. when there is reason to believe he may not meet the physical standards. 2. A pilot undergoing medical review under this section will give the DHS access to all medical records requested by the DHS. 3. The DHS may require a medical evaluation of a pilot holding a valid First Class Medical Certificate. This medical evaluation will be limited to the nature of the First Class Medical physical standard(s) in question. 4. The DHS and the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor will confer on the choice of the Company Medical Examiner (CME) prior to sending the pilot for evaluation, if the pilot releases the pertinent information to the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor. 5. The DHS will select the CME. 6. Medical information provided by the DHS to the CME will be limited to medically relevant information provided by doctors and treating facilities.

Originally Posted by Flying Elvis (Post 2000151)

Umm...pretty sure that's already in the contract. The TA lowered the effective threshold to require such actions, and fiddled with the language to apply pressure on the pilots.

Commendable on the trap setup. If there was a forum participation trophy, I'd recommend you for it. .

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000178)

What actually happened is the second paragraph that I posted was eliminated in the TA. The first paragraph was modified to essentially combine the two.

A The DHS or his designee may request further information from a pilot who is required to verifyregarding his sickness or may require a pilot to provide a medical release when:
a. b.
a pilot’s sick leave exceeds a medical release threshold, or
verification is required, or has been sought under Section 14 F. 4. may be required to provide, and the Company withDHS is not able to assess the medical basis for the use of sick leave.
Note: Prior to requiring a medical release, the pilot must first be provided with an additional opportunity to submit verification that is acceptable to the DHS.

A medical release will be limited to a written authorization for release of medical information (release), provided the release is limited toto the DHS for:
the specific sickness for which the pilot claimed sick leave, and
the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off
immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave,
and.
If, following the review of information provided pursuant to a medical release, the DHS is not able to satisfactorily assess the medical basis for the use of sick leave, the release may be expanded to include a Company designated doctor or other health care professional(s) and the Director – Health Services and the Senior Vice- President of Flight Operations.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000173)

What actually happened is the second paragraph that I posted was eliminated in the TA. The first paragraph was modified to essentially combine the two.

A The DHS or his designee may request further information from a pilot who is required to verifyregarding his sickness or may require a pilot to provide a medical release when:
a. b.
a pilot’s sick leave exceeds a medical release threshold, or
verification is required, or has been sought under Section 14 F. 4. may be required to provide, and the Company withDHS is not able to assess the medical basis for the use of sick leave.
Note: Prior to requiring a medical release, the pilot must first be provided with an additional opportunity to submit verification that is acceptable to the DHS.

A medical release will be limited to a written authorization for release of medical information (release), provided the release is limited toto the DHS for:
the specific sickness for which the pilot claimed sick leave, and
the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off
immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave,
and.
If, following the review of information provided pursuant to a medical release, the DHS is not able to satisfactorily assess the medical basis for the use of sick leave, the release may be expanded to include a Company designated doctor or other health care professional(s) and the Director – Health Services and the Senior Vice- President of Flight Operations.

All in all does not seem nearly as evil as all the forum posts on the subject not to mention that the company has consistently attempted to get pilots off not on disability. It's much cheaper for them to keep you working.

Originally Posted by notEnuf (Post 2000189)

Don't care, voted down. Moving on.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000215)

You may well be voting on the same language again.

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 2000223)

Oh really? How so?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000225)

I believe the stated plan is to work from the existing TA when talks resume.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000225)

I believe the stated plan is to work from the existing TA when talks resume.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000225)

I believe the stated plan is to work from the existing TA when talks resume.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1999886)

Just curious, are these the items you feel are so onerous on the medical records issue?

A pilot who is required to verify his sickness under Section 14 F. 4. may be required to provide the Company with a written authorization for release of medical information (release), provided the release is limited to: 1. the specific sickness for which the pilot claimed sick leave, 2. the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave, and 3. a Company designated doctor or other health care professional(s) and the Director – Health Services and the Senior Vice-President of Flight Operations.

Regardless of whether a pilot has a current First Class Medical Certificate, the Director – Health Services (DHS) may review the medical records of a pilot: a. who receives an FAA special issuance medical certificate, b. who seeks to return to flight duty after being absent for at least four months for medical reasons, or c. when there is reason to believe he may not meet the physical standards. 2. A pilot undergoing medical review under this section will give the DHS access to all medical records requested by the DHS. 3. The DHS may require a medical evaluation of a pilot holding a valid First Class Medical Certificate. This medical evaluation will be limited to the nature of the First Class Medical physical standard(s) in question. 4. The DHS and the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor will confer on the choice of the Company Medical Examiner (CME) prior to sending the pilot for evaluation, if the pilot releases the pertinent information to the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor. 5. The DHS will select the CME. 6. Medical information provided by the DHS to the CME will be limited to medically relevant information provided by doctors and treating facilities.

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 2000286)

Shouldn't you be posting the Failed TA language that we avoided, instead of the current C2012 language we have now?

I don't think he has a problem with what we have now.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000288)

I did post the TA language, read the thread.

Originally Posted by Flying Elvis (Post 1999856)

Well, if you're going to count things that didn't exist as a loss, that's fair. We'll call it lost opportunity cost.

But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain.

- You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke.
-- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost.
-- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation).
-- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips).

- You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise."
-- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips).

- You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs.
-- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there.

I could continue and will at a later date.

Originally Posted by notEnuf (Post 1999900)

RESTORATION is the goal the group has chosen, this is not an ALPA devised slogan or ALPA devised ploy. This is grass roots, to say that amounts to nothing is a slap in the face of every pilot who is willing to wait for a proper contract. You don't need polling when the answer is being shouted at you.

RESTORATION is not an unachievable long shot. It is a sensible request from a company making all time record profits, not just in its own history but the history of the entire industry. The rest of the employees of this company were restored long ago. Its about time we are as well!

If there is such angst over the companies opener then let it be shown to the masses. We will reject it loud and clear for you. The starting point is not relevant. I could say our opener is to double our pay and be awarded stock options, full medical coverage until death, retirement at 60% FAE, and 50 days of flex time a year. Does that mean anything as an opener to the company?

If I am asked what I would be willing to give up to achieve RESTORATION, my answer will be ALPA. If there is not a forceful effort to achieve what the pilots are willing to fight for now, during the best economic times the industry has ever seen, then there never will be.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000225)

I believe the stated plan is to work from the existing TA when talks resume.

Originally Posted by Ferd149 (Post 2000270)

Where did you see that? Nothing I've seen published says that.

Originally Posted by TheManager (Post 2000360)

He didn't. See post above.

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 2000286)

Shouldn't you be posting the Failed TA language that we avoided, instead of the current C2012 language we have now?

I don't think he has a problem with what we have now.

Originally Posted by pilotc90a (Post 2000384)

Actually I have a small issue with our current contract language. There is still an option for a "medical release" in C12. The company has no right, and no reason snooping around in my private medical records. for any reason. period. I will continue to vote against any contract that does not remove medical release language.

While the medical release does not violate the letter of the HIPPA law, it certainly violates the spirit of it.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000391)

The option for medical release has been in the contracts longer then the most senior pilot working. I have never heard of a single instance of the company abusing it. I suspect the company feels they have some legal obligation to insure fitness of its pilot group. The only use of records I am aware of is the company trying to assist pilots in getting a medical reinstated.

What I find interesting is the majority of pilots believe the medical release requirement originated with his TA and some have attempted to portray it as so.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000382)

I guess we interprete this statement differently however when the letter came out there were several posters here who took it the same way I do.


After reviewing the polling, and hearing from the expanded team, the MEC reached consensus that our best path forward is a focused approach to re-engaging with management. We informally refer to this path as "focused plus". We know the areas of the last tentative agreement (TA) that must be readdressed (the "focus"), and we are preparing to address other areas of the contract that should have been part of the TA (the "plus"). Any modifications and additions to be sought will be directed by your MEC in a steady and business-like manner.

Here are a few forum comments:

He committed to improving the failed TA.
That in itself is a failure.
We need to start from scratch. Forget that abomination ever existed.

To a certain extent, I agree.


But using NA15 as a starting point is a strategic pitfall. So many concessions and shortcomings...we'd be negotiating with an anvil chained to our feet.

Using NA15 as the starting point is the ultimate win for those who seek to squelch our expectations.
It only took 7 weeks to negotiate NA15. I'm perfectly content to consider that time a sunk cost. Let's start with a clean slate, new survey, and a much more robust shopping list.

Agreed. Burn TA15 and start clean with the new reps in March.

Originally Posted by pilotc90a (Post 2000384)

Actually I have a small issue with our current contract language. There is still an option for a "medical release" in C12. The company has no right, and no reason snooping around in my private medical records. for any reason. period. I will continue to vote against any contract that does not remove medical release language.

While the medical release does not violate the letter of the HIPPA law, it certainly violates the spirit of it.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000391)

I suspect the company feels they have some legal obligation to insure fitness of its pilot group.

Originally Posted by Hank Kingsley (Post 2000966)

This guy that has fun sailing continues to post statements as if they are facts, while in truth, they are opinions. Beware.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2001047)

The Chairmans letter of 13 Oct never existed right? I made up the sections of the current contract and TA I posted right?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000391)

I suspect the company feels they have some legal obligation to insure fitness of its pilot group.

Originally Posted by index (Post 2001052)

How about explaining this "fact" Mr. Obtuse...

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2001057)

Let's see, I posted that I suspect the company feels the above. Not sure how the term I suspect becomes a fact. I am aware however of several situations most dealing with mental health where the company had to get involved. They did not go looking to do that but events forced their hand.
In at least one case where I know the individual involved the company used his medical records to have the pilot back flying quickly and paid him in full. Divorces can be nasty things is all I will add to the details.

Originally Posted by index (Post 2001068)

sailing,

I acknowledged that there have been rare infrequent uses of the company wading into a pilot's medical records because of concerns about a pilot's competency to operate an aircraft. Let's put that to bed now because that is NOT THE ISSUE THAT HAS PILOTS CONCERNED.

It's the opposite situation...pilot calls in sick because he can't comply with FAR 61.53 (see requirements below), then gets a form e-mail from Flight Ops regarding the pilot's obligations while out on sick leave, sometimes followed up with a "fireside chat" with the friendly CPO, under the auspices of just "checking to make sure said pilot is "okay," and to make sure said pilot understands that he knows he "has to call in well once he's well" (gee, thanks for that nugget...who woulda thunk that?), and to make sure said SICK pilot is comforted by knowing that the CPO can answer all of said pilot's questions about use of sick leave...blah blah blah. It's similar to the multiple hoops a pilot must jump through when refusing to extend. It's all scripted to be very "friendly" but the message is clear. We're watching you. We're documenting everything. We're here to "help."



FAR 61.53: Prohibition on Operations During Medical Deficiency

• Operations that require a medical certificate. Except as provided for in paragraph (b) of this section, a person who holds a current medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required flight crewmember while that person:
•  
  • Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation; or
  • Is taking medication or receiving other treatment for a medical condition that results in the person being unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2000391)

The option for medical release has been in the contracts longer then the most senior pilot working. I have never heard of a single instance of the company abusing it. I suspect the company feels they have some legal obligation to insure fitness of its pilot group. The only use of records I am aware of is the company trying to assist pilots in getting a medical reinstated.

What I find interesting is the majority of pilots believe the medical release requirement originated with his TA and some have attempted to portray it as so.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2001099)

The interesting thing is I have never personally known anyone harassed over sick leave except one person who openly bragged he never left a minute unused.
I have refused extensions with a ACARS message. The only hoop was a 2 minute call with the duty pilot. I have refused to go do to fatigue twice in the the last few years before legally or contractually timed out. First one never heard a word about it. Second one another 2 minute phone call.
I have a friend who works at UPS. His stories are the definition of harassment. Delta not so much.