After all the crap guys here gave USAPA for pulling that stunt, it would be highly hypocritical of us. Which I guess means, game on!

Folks, we will never go to "binding arbitration"... that requires the agreement of BOTH parties.

The ONLY entity that can impose a contract is Congress... and in that VERY unlikely event, it would be time for National to call for an SOS... because if they didn't, it would be the end of Alpa.

We will, in all likely hood, go to mediation... there is a HUGE difference...

Mediation is not to be feared.

How quickly would ALPA get a deal if there was a full NMB campaign where they had to defeat DPA or be replaced? I am liking their stance and willingness to question more and more.

Just when I start to stop thinking of myself as a noob, someone brings up something from before my time that leaves me scratching my head....

Little help for the (somewhat) newbie, please? "USAirways playbook"?

America West/US Air merger. Both ALPA, US Air was senior and didn't like their treatment on SLI so they went independent and fought every agreement they were a part of, which mired them in dysfunction to this day.

Man you lost me on your entire post! I voted no, I want a lot more. I point out the company is stalling and you say I am supporting them or something? Strange man, strange!!!

I read your post exactly your way... I think the Capn' was a bit itchy on the trigger finger.

I just noticed the numbers. DL doesn't have a 737-700 rate or a 757-200 rate. The 700/800 pay the same and the 757 pays 767 rate. Not arguing if its enough or not, just that part of your above complaint is comparing wrong pay charts. OFG

Thought it was straight to a PEB :rolleyes:

An informative link for those new to the contract negotiation process, like myself. It's actually a SWA FA website, but it hits all the key points like NMB, PEB, Arbitration, etc. Check out the "Our Local's History" tab for an enlightening history of hot pants and unions.

https://twu556.org/nt/contract-negotiations-102/

What pay chart would you compare them to? We do have a different banding system but the bands only seem to favor UAL on the 767-400. They only have 16 of them. The 757 is probably the largest common fleet between the airlines. Would you not compare their 757 rate to ours?
I am fairly certain that if you compared total pilot payroll under the failed TA verses the UAL TA the failed TA would have a higher value. My point is that I keep hearing pilots discuss how good the UAL TA is for us. I don't see it helping at all with the NMB. It does increase UAL's overall costs so it might make management more willing to cough up some money. Still I think a stronger message to Delta and UAL management would be a rejection. It might also send a message to the NMB.

Sorry to keep butting in, but also keep in mind that not only does UAL have a significantly higher number of top paying (747/777/787) positions, we also don't have anything paying below 737-700 like the 717, so we have more pilots on a higher pay scale. Don't get me wrong, all of us at UAL would love your SL policy, and your Min/Day and training pay, but just trying to show how a pilot in the same seniority is quite possibly in a higher pay band at UAL due to our fleet mix.

To be fair, hasn't it been a major focus of past negotiations to take back scope from the regionals and get mainline metal doing that flying? That's exactly what the 717's and likely the 190's are doing. How many two class RJ's at United? I see an awful lot of them. I thought those small airplanes where what you wanted? Granted more widebody's is always great, I just mean I'm surprised to hear complaining about getting what you wanted.

...oh wait, never mind, we're pilots 😏

Thanks, that's a great read for somebody with no background in the management-labor contract process.

Batol,

I think you are mis-reading. No one is upset small airplanes are coming to mainline. That's a great thing.

But, perspective...something I didn't really understand (academically yes, practically no) until we got the 717...some airplanes are behind you. What I mean is, as you get more senior, there are aircraft who's QOL and pay, are both lower (in the left seat) than what you have now.

This kind of removes or at least reduces the impact of small jet scope recapture for more senior pilots. Recapture is great. There was a time when I was willing to expend significant negotiating capital for rj scope recapture. At this point, it seems like a fait accompli, just give it time. It's still a great thing.

What delta needs now is top end organic expansion. If that happens, I cannot imagine the positive effects that would ripple through the entire seniority list. And no, I'm not willing to give concessions to make that happen.

Must have been a great time at SWA in 1980, FA's had to wear "hot pants" and they were doubled up in rooms during layovers!:eek:

Very pro-pilot article here... hope the newswires pick it up.

Pilots Demand a Larger Slice of Airline Pie - Bloomberg Business

Is the PEB the same as PEB! PEB! PEB! ? :D

^^^ Yeah, that makes sense. Thx!

Darby got it wrong too! We're still well below our old pay rates!

We want both.

A lot was lost on the bottom end and we want that rectified and a lot is actively being lost and given away on the top end, and we want that to stop and be reversed.

I had a A330B in the jumpseat not long ago who, if correct, said that EB had told his crew personally on a flight to LHR that we made 75% of the profit on a VA codeshare and he was going to LHR to persuade them to do more. And the pilot thought that was a good thing, for PS and all... whichI bet they wouldn't mind giving away because its at risk pay but I'm putting words in their mouth. So when I say active, I mean active.

Imho, you should own 100% of your flying for brand and quality control. But airlines actively pursue outsourcing as a cost control even if it costs more than it saves.

Is he still a 717 DGS instructor?

And they will keep doing so. RA has said many times publicly that in lieu of relaxed foreign ownership laws that 'virtual mergers' were the next best thing. In fact, they may even be better. So expect more of the same, and as you said, that means it's up to us to make sure we get our fair share of the production balance.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_017.jpg

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_018.jpg

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_019.jpg

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_020.jpg

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_021.jpg

The investor day presentation has it all, just listened to it again. More equity investments to come. Virgin is the model. After AeroMexico, GOL is next up. The Jet deal could be the precursor to the next one. With the ME carriers dealing with low oil prices, Etihad might be willing to sell Delta it's 24% or more (it was 24% in 2013) share to shut them up about government intervention.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da..._8k-ex9901.htm

Ha Spirit 1st year pay is higher than United and Delta 1st year pay? I call bullsheit on that chart.

Hard to do when Spirit's first year rate is $38/hr (according to APC) vs. $70 for Delta.

Well, the good news is we're doing that.