What bothers me most about our last counter proposal was the lack of restoring our DB value. 18% DC won't begin to be enough for the Dead Zone to replace the value of the DB plan that part of our deferred compensation, but was taken from us.

I still want to see the accounting on how many Billions the Delta Pilots have contributed to Delta's record earnings.

Tim
I don't think our union wants to publish that number. It would raise expectations in this time of historic profits. You and I can feel that number, we know that number, it's keeping us on the property much longer than we thought.
Our deferred compensation, aka a defined benefit was worth millions.

Hank

The alpa 'accounting experts' have all the data.

I'm just a dumbazz line pilot but right now I would guess between the unqualified payments which would be paid from operating revenues..... and required payments to the trust which would satisfy the qualified payments .....the current number would conservatively be $500M/year.

And with retirements over the next 5-8 years..... it easily would exceed $1B a year.

Tim....alpa gains nothing from restoration of an income stream from which they derive zero dues dollars. Right now alpa has tapped nearly 100% of your compensation for dues dollars.

What we all should be demanding right now is alpa having a mandatory PWA section requiring any carrier that has availed itself of bkruptcy to shed the pilots pension obligation.... be required to backstop the PBGC benefit payments.

The pbgc will have to move to cut benefit payments in the near future. Likely before you reach the mandatory retirement age.

If you want a DB plan then you should have gone to FDX or UPS.

You are brilliant!! We had one here before our Alpa leaders let it get stolen!! Your point is, if you want a career go fly night freight, but if you want a job apply at DAL. Well thought out on your end.:confused:

Yup, where were you 30 years ago?

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic! No one would say a thing this stupid for real. Would they?

Buddy Rydell says sarcasm is angers ugly cousin!!

Interesting idea. Seeing as bankruptcy courts can throw out out contract language up to and including the entire PWA, would this language help?

Would it help?..... not if the airline revisits bankruptcy.

But as a going concern.... absolutely.

Tim is looking for tangible return on the surrendered DB. Its not likely to happen..... but the LEAST the CBA responsible for constructing and perpetuating such a failed economic model should be required to do..... is at least attempt to prevent any further losses for the membership that has paid so dearly for alpas galactic incompetence.

Apparently not enough people asked for this item as it didn't make it on the list. I'm not sure exactly how we would calculate the "loss." My own math counts both Claim and Note monies and the PBGC $; some would not. Last I checked the single employer PBGC is about 75% funded and that is what I use. Backstopping the future PBGC payments would be the "right thing to do," but I'm not holding my breath. OFG

Couldn't Delta just take out an insurance policy in the event of a PBGC failure? Kind of like the golf outings that offer a car if you make a hole in one on a par 3? They don't buy the car, they buy an insurance policy! Just in case someone actually drains one. I'm sure we could find an insurance company to underwrite it. Determine the risk, and estimate how much money it would take to cover what we have coming from the PBGC.

Personally, I'm not counting on the money being there when I retire, but it sure would be nice to believe it's going to be there.

backside of the clock flying --> shorter life span --> DB pays out for a shorter time.

OFG.......The criminal shame of it all is for $50M/year and a CBA called THE AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION....... filled with financial and legal experts......NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO BE ASKING FOR THIS ON A CONTRACT SURVEY.

This is a national issue. The signatory party to alpa pilots working agreements is ALPA.......That is where the gatekeeper resides for this issue.

ANY airline that used bankptcy to relegate an alpa pilot groups pension to the insolvent pbgc should be held accountable in backstopping that benefit payment.

We are not talking about defunct, fragmented carriers..... we are talking about viable multi-billion profitable corporations that USED bankruptcy for arguably the EXPRESS PURPOSE of shedding pension obligations...

If alpa refuses to ratify a Ta without this provison....it can get dun.

Of course.. Why didn't I think of that?.... Oh! Now I remember, neither aviation departments existed then... Sheeesh...

Not to mention Timbo was here for 2 decades or more before the pension was cancelled.

Well Z, When they canned the DB DL made the case they couldn't restructure AND maintain the DB plan and PBGC bought it. Doing the "right thing" now and "what's legally required" now might be quite different. I don't know how successful anyone has been at post-termination efforts, but obviously DL can afford a fix.. I just doubt they will. I think we are truly in a weird position. Plan terminated and a few years later the company is minting money. Hmm. We should at least ask. OFG

we should be listening to this guy....he speaketh with straight tongue....

OFG because of thru criminally incompetent manner in which alpa had structured our DB plan..... with nearly half the benefit streaming from current year operating revenues..... just like fuel and leases..... it was an argument any 5 year old could have made to the court and prevailed.

That is why.... the morning after the bk filing..... the very first operating expense the corporation asked the court to terminate..... was the payment of the unqualified portion of the pension plan.

And the retired guys got zeroed out immediately.

What I am advocating is an effort to prevent history from repeating itself..... again.

I understand that we did ask, and RA said that Delta "is not in a position to do that" (translation: "We don't want to and we don't have to"). :mad:

Of course they don't want to, they would rather use our retirement money to buy back stock to reward themselves for being such outstanding individuals! :rolleyes:

That's why we need to go to both the PBGC and the courts and have them ordered to fund our DB plans, BEFORE they use that money (OUR MONEY!) to buy back stock!

We'd have better shot of getting an industry wide effort to make the airlines to step up to the plate. Many of them have dumped pensions on the PBGC only to turn wildly profitable. The stock buy back schemes should be ****ing off the PBGC. I would assume management has an earnings per share performance pay metric.

Dino, PAC guy, where are you?

Congress is well aware of the pbgc insolvency. Witness the latest legislation hiking premiums and allowing recasting the multi employer benefit payments.

So there is probably already existing political momentum.

The only question to be answered is if for $50 million a year....alpa will do something other than take the easy way out.

Just sitting back with a bag of popcorn and waiting for the games to begin. My guess, summer 2016 will be another blockbuster or potentially an inverse squared function.

Sailingfun, be sure to PM me after this post and threaten some company action.

No kidding, RA will be backing up Brinks trucks on Virginia Ave. We can only hope the Compensation Committee decides boost his compensation from 17 million a year to a cool 20. How does he get by?

I'll bet it'll be a lot more than $20M!

I'll go with $30M.

We should start a pool, closest to RA's pay gets....a free cup of Starbucks!:rolleyes:

Oh, and I'll bet Ed buys a new condo on the west coast!

Not trying to add insult to injury..... but I'm pretty sure he also still has his pension....

DOH!

And don't forget where he was working just prior to Delta, United Heath Care. So I'll bet he's got a pretty sweet retirement health care package too.:rolleyes:

You mean he won't have to go :eek:bama care like the rest of us underlings........

Anything about pay and hotels for new hires while in training? DAL lags the industry in this regard and it seems it's gotten embarrassing.

Also any talk of an ESPP (employee stock purchase program)? Alaska has a great one.

We already have an ESPP at DAL....

After looking at the proposed UAL pay tables, with the profit sharing, vacation and DC left unchanged, this contract opener looks more like a best and final offer. I would consider voting YES for the opener, but even one reduction in any area of the proposal triggers a NO vote. They cut this one close to the bone in the current environment.

If RA is smart, he will counter with our opener, PLUS an accelerated implementation schedule on per diem, retirement and vacation pay just to be safe.

Are you even a Delta pilot?

Why, when we are trying (so far unsuccessfully) to negotiate industry leading pay scales, would any sane negotiator want to spend bargaining chips on hotel reimbursement for the first six weeks of a thirty year career. Get real.

Frankly, ALPA should spend zero negotiating capital in this one! If the company truly believes in what they write in the Flight Plan and other documents, they would treat the new employees equally!

Delta should be putting all of their new hires up.

Agreed. In order to be competitive Delta needs to handle new hire bennies as they see fit. NH hotels were in TA 2015. I naively hope it was something Delta offered up, not requested by ALPA. Zero negotiating capitol should be expended. 13,000 of us here and generations before had to tough it out as new hires, so sympathy won't abound. It would be nice if new hires had less financial worries, but let's focus on making the "meat" of our careers better.

Go to Alaska then!!!!! You are in the new hire mode for 8 weeks max,,,Pay rates may be close to forever!!!!So better yet stay at a regional and don't pollute our gene pool with your presence.

Lol. For what it is worth (not sure with new TA) but FDX didn't put new hires in a hotel for new hire training either. There are literally THOUSANDS of people who would give anything to go to DAL. New hire hotels are not something worth bargaining for. That is something that is up to the company to provide and/or modify.

At the end of my 30+ year career at DAL I am not gonna look back and say "would've been a great career if they would've paid for my hotel during the entire time I was in ATL for new hire sims....."

I hear Delta puts on a real nice dinner for new hires and guests. That's why I'm not at United. Trading my new hire hotel for dinner.

Can't wait to start.

DAL poolie

The reason we were told, (30 years ago) that Delta doesn't pay for hotels for new hires was, you don't actually work for Delta until you complete and pass your new hire training checkride. Granted, few flunked out, but there was one guy in my new hire class who went on a bender one Tuesday night, missed class on Weds and was let go.

There was one other guy in my class who after 12 months, flunked his end of probation checkride, but he was already on thin ice and had been warned to get a new attitude twice before, by the ATL CPO. He got into a battle of egos with his check engineer, and lost.

Which major airline has door pay?