Good post. People mistakenly use arbitration in place of mediation. In section 6 negotiations the next step is mediation, and then after that you go into cooling off, release for strike etc (theoretically).

Arbitration is almost never part of the process unless its something else like a grievance over a contractual provision or a termination. The arbitrator clarifies contract language or makes the final determination on a termination case that did not get resolved at system board of adjustment.

So when (if ever) is the 1st time we are legally allowed to take any kind of action? Until the company is facing delays, cancellations, and significantly increased costs which lead to consumer frustration and/or Wall Street angst, I don't see them being amenable to truly negotiating with us in good faith.

+++++++++1

We are allowed to take our backpacks off any time, even today. Nobody says you have to fly 89+ hours a month.

I left my backpack right on top of my DB retirement plan, and now I can't find either one.

Let's see it takes about 18% for us to come back up to a rate that we had over a decade ago (2004) while the rest of the company employees are well above their pre-giveback rates. So 22% is about my bare minimum to accept a TA at this point and that is if the company doesn't try to touch our profit sharing which will certainly happen as they can't have us get so much more than the noncon's.

I bet we are in for a long ride.

Bob, remember the PPA? One of their talking points was to get our retirement plans out of Delta's hands and into our own names, that's when DALPA finally came up with the MMPP, but obviously it was too little, too late.

I read in Flying the Line 1, American Airline's pilots were some of the founders of ALPA, but eventually they left, one of their biggest reasons for leaving was, they wanted their retirement plans in their own names.

When I asked Kim Welch (DALPA R+I Chairman during C2K, and after 9-11, when the run on the bank started) what would happen to our DB Plan if every eligible pilot retired early and took their 50% lump sum, he said, "Every pilot that retires early gets less than the full amount, and he also reduces future liabilities, and the plan is fully funded, so there is no danger of you (me) losing your DB plan."

Then Kim left early, along with a bunch of other DALPA higher up's...:rolleyes:

While I agree that this would be a 'decent' final product for our next TA, I believe that 50% + 1 would vote for these pay rates without any QOL 'plus' ups. I think most would accept the FO LCA being conceded. I actually think they would give up a few percent of PS, too. As long as sick leave is left alone, there seem to be plenty of older guys that would take that pay raise and let the rest go.

I appreciate everybody saying that this is barely good enough for our end state, but most of you were saying you were worried the old guys would accept the last one with 8, 6(0), 3, 3 if the sick leave changes weren't in there.

I hope we stand strong for no QOL concessions, but anytime you throw money at the group, unity breaks down.

Timbo.....i recall all too well the sneering accusation of alpa operatives directed at anyone who dared question their fabricated and foolish reality.

The pension was never.... repeat, never fully funded. For the simple reason about half your pension benefit came out of future operating revenues of the company.

People go to JAIL for the type of fraud alpa has perpetrated.

Alpa ONLY ACTED to create the mmpp when as you observed, there was a perceived threat to their status as a CBA.

For the life of me I cannot understand or accept how this pilot group continues to retain a CBA with such a record of failure, let alone send them tens of millions in dues every year.

The APA pilots departed the pattern because they knew the requirement of AFL-CIO affiliates to conform to the template of an employer owned pension plan was sowing the seeds of disaster.

So delta pilots surrendered their DC plan and got in line.... to be screwed. And the APA pilots....... well they preserved the accrued value of their pilots retirement.

Even the AFL-CIO knew employer owned DB plans were failures..... as early as the 1950's. Which is why they engaged in a decade plus long effort to create a mechanism to transfer these liabilities to the central government....... they didn't get that done fully, but the pbgc, a 'GSE' was the result.

The pbgc....now an insolvent corporation that is supposed to pay the delta pilots annuitized retirement benefit.

Well, guess what folks......IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

The question each and every beneficiary better be asking themselves now is......." what is our $50 million a year in dues doing about it?"
'

The Dalpa R & I guys were as forthcoming as Jack Utsick, the concert producer. He swindled a boat load of money out of DAL pilots. Mum was the word on the retirement funding, and some guys were jumping ship in the middle of the night.

The noncon's could have been pilots if they were willing to do what it takes to get qualified to fly for DAL. Besides, THEY have already reached RESTORATION. We need to divorce ourselves from this line of thinking. We are not the noncon's. I can do a long ride.

Hank....... jack ran a Ponzi scheme.

Which is EXACTLY what alpa has done...... and profited from.

Um you need to reread my post. What I said is that these pay raises and keeping my PS as is...is my minimum. The company will think differently but that is their problem. So if they try and say ok to the payrates but you have to align with the noncons then I'm instantly a no vote.

The bolded part is what I was referring to in the original post.
I agree with this. Noncons are not our problem.

All you have to consider is how long SD has been in that position to know which "side" he is on.

At least Jack's scheme had some good music....

I hope the opener was presented more like a best and final offer, with the printed version delivered in a backpack.

"Mr. Anderson, we understand you would like labor risk off the table, especially before the busy summer season. We are giving you that opportunity today. We of course are more than willing to go down a traditional route, a route that we are unlikely to walk while wearing backpacks..."

Just whose traditional route is Dickson talking about? North or South?

Merry Christmas!

We have pilots at Delta that downt know the senior VP of flight Ops sits on the other side of the negotioating table, just like every airline in the world? Hmmmm.... I think this may be the reason why people have a skewed sense of friendship with our bosses. It's a business relationship, SD has marching orders and he follows them.

As smart as he is, I think he needs to March a little bit more; ONE, to look professional in his uniform and TWO, to live a longer and healthier life. There is no excuse for him not to hire a Physical trainer to help him lean out. He makes a ton of money.

Merry Christmas Brothers..

TEN

I wonder if he gets all his Health Care 'bonus dollars' when he takes his annual physical?? :rolleyes:

Every time I see him he looks bigger! :eek:

Hahahaha! Love it! :D:D

Merry Christmas!

[QUOTE=TenYearsGone;2034468]As smart as he is, I think he needs to March a little bit more; ONE, to look professional in his uniform and TWO, to live a longer and healthier life. There is no excuse for him not to hire a Physical trainer to help him lean out. He makes a ton of money[QUOTE]

It's chickensh*t to attack a man for his size. I've flown with plenty of line pilots who are....out of shape. Steve is a good guy. Yes he has a job to do, but he is on the pilots side on most issues.

Would you rather have someone like OC in charge of flight ops? Not me.

You want a real retirement plan? Get debt free, own your property outright, grow your own food (at least enough to supplement), and arm up to defend it. Your 415c limits aren't' going to mean squat when the government 1) eliminates the tax advantages of private retirement vehicles, and then 2) confiscates all that money. Don't' think it could happen? It's a certainty. The Leviathan needs fed. Private retirement money is the last great pile of money out there. It's already being talked about in academic circles. Nobody thought a lot of the stuff going on right now would ever happen...

They won't confiscate it...... they will just require it be held in treasury issues...:)

[QUOTE=Xray678;2034552][QUOTE=TenYearsGone;2034468]As smart as he is, I think he needs to March a little bit more; ONE, to look professional in his uniform and TWO, to live a longer and healthier life. There is no excuse for him not to hire a Physical trainer to help him lean out. He makes a ton of moneyKnow both of them; we would be much better off with OC in SDs position. Think its time for the triumvirate (SD/JG/JT) to move on and bring in new blood...

[QUOTE=Xray678;2034552][QUOTE=TenYearsGone;2034468]As smart as he is, I think he needs to March a little bit more; ONE, to look professional in his uniform and TWO, to live a longer and healthier life. There is no excuse for him not to hire a Physical trainer to help him lean out. He makes a ton of money I don't think he meant it seriously. We all have to have a laugh every once in a while. Even SD himself I'm sure has a good laugh about it. We all have to have a thick skin in this industry. Its all good clean fun.

As for being on the pilots side on most issues, I contend that he is not. I think he has limited ability to do anything of real value if he wants to protect his job.

He's paid to be management's Darth Vader. At least he's good at it.

[QUOTE=iceman49;2034598][QUOTE=Xray678;2034552]Completely agree.

Carl

[QUOTE=Xray678;2034552][QUOTE=TenYearsGone;2034468]As smart as he is, I think he needs to March a little bit more; ONE, to look professional in his uniform and TWO, to live a longer and healthier life. There is no excuse for him not to hire a Physical trainer to help him lean out. He makes a ton of moneyAgreed on the physical appearance/girth attack, unless it was all in fun.

To answer your question: "Yes," I would choose OC over the current occupant. The smarts and competence of neither man is in question. But if you like the idea of somebody who could see the pilots' perspective, a rotation of chairs might be in order. Not that it necessarily matters if your hands are tied from above. But if there were one more likely to turn in his papers and walk in favor of pilots, my money favors the high hair of over the expanded belt line! :D

Did you guys know OC moonlights as singer/songwriter under the pseudonym of Lyle Lovett? Apparently it got him 3 years in the sack with Julia Roberts ;)

[QUOTE=zippinbye;2034952][QUOTE=Xray678;2034552]While I would agree that no one on the fourth floor is very good at seeing things from a pilots perspective, I have to laugh at the idea of OC having more of a pilot perspective than SD or JG.

[QUOTE=ghilis101;2034641][QUOTE=Xray678;2034552]Ghillis!! My brother, I was sort of serious! We preach professionalism and brotherhood at Delta. As a brother, I am concerned with his weight. He needs to lose weight or else his "health" future is bleak.

[QUOTE=Xray678;2035013][QUOTE=zippinbye;2034952]OC, SD; whom ever takes the title; the one thing you ought to know is that they will not have our best interests or else they will be FIRED! I know I sound harsh when I criticize about someones weight on a public forum (I apologize) but in all honesty, I speak the truth! Overweight is not professional or healthy.. Peace to you Xray. This is not personal, Im sorry :(

TEN

If OC reads this, he'll be laughing his ass off!

Carl

[QUOTE=Xray678;2035013][QUOTE=zippinbye;2034952]Based on what?

It's a 39.7% raise.

Oh Shhhhhh!@#$!!!!! The ERflyer machine is about to start up..Stand by for posts that will tell us how we F'd up by voting No and that we will never see this "opener" come to fruition. Add in some key words like "TMV, Unlocking Value, Money in your pocket ". And then, utilize these key words in sentences that show that we will never recapture what we voted NO on...FIRE AWAY ER!!!!!:D:D:D

TEN

Yep. ERflyer will start ranting about black swans, and soiling his pants about the price of oil soaring.

The guy has a debilitating case of risk aversion. It's a miracle he even gets out of bed.

Anyway, management loves it when he posts.

There were legitimate reasons to vote no. I was simply stating the fact that our new counter offer is asking for a 39.7% raise.

Who the heck is OC?

O C is - Managing Director, Flying OPS. Effectively the Chief Pilots' Chief Pilot - they all work for him.