I don't think Delta has to do anything "abusive" of ERISA to trigger a PBGC decision to restore the pension. They can do it at their discretion. As long as the decision to do so is not arbitrary or capricious.

It might be worth exploring efforts to convince the PBGC that Delta has recovered financially to such an extent that restoration of the pilot pension plan is warranted.

Lobby the PBGC to restore our pension.
THAT would be money well spent by ALPA-PAC.

What do you do with the 3500 guys that get squat?

What are the options for those of us who don't trust pensions and want nothing to do with them BUT think the guys nearing retirement or retired deserve to have it restored for them?

Isn't this our counter proposal to the failed TA? If this is just an opener to negotiate down from I'm underwhelmed.

DB pensions create a dependency on the company that promises them or the government. I want neither. The DC plan works but 20% over a career with 7% returns is needed to get to an equivalent of the old 60% FAE.

But don't forget, the DC plan creates a dependency on Wall Street, which is why most Unions went to a DB plan in the first place.

Remember the Great Depression?

Remember 2008?

Think it can't happen again?

Think you can't lose your life's savings if it's tied up in stocks?

The airline bankruptcies of 2004 were orchestrated to allow for consolidation, unopposed by the government, funded by wall street, with our pensions flushed with the help of ALPA.

What was it Deep Throat said?

Follow the Money.

Where are our former ALPA leaders today?

Moak? Babbit? Woerth?

They all have pensions, we do not.

I'm wit you on that. I don't see this company lasting 50-60 years as is.

I get that too. I just worry about it being used against us. But for those who just rerouted or within a decade, I feel like there ought to be something but I'm far from the type A that can create a solution on retirement plans.

Do you know why Congress bailed out AIG when the market crashed in 2008?

Guess who insures their retirement plans?

So, before Delta spends billions on stock buybacks, they should buy us retirement plan annuities from AIG, Congress won't let them go under!

Where do you think the money is going at the rate of $1B a year to fund those who still have pensions? Wall street. Specifically 25% of AeroMexico now. If you have the money and the responsibility, then you can invest in REITs or individual stocks or bonds through the brokerage link etc. You have control.

You have control yes, but are you an Investment Expert?

No, you are a pilot, 'nuff said.

Here's what the experts are investing in.

Delta intends to acquire more shares of Aeroméxico | Delta News Hub

2 words, life-cycle fund... they aren't sexy but they mimic pension fund managers' balanced long term tapered returns ...Ron Popeil style, set it and forget it.

Alpas past interest in doing the 'hard' things regarding protecting pensions.... is exactly in sympathy with the dues revenue they derived from that source of income.

Zero.

We live in the here and now. Thousands of alpa pilots annuitized retirement is in the hands of an insolvent provider.

These same pilots are still now sending tens of millions in dues to alpa.......for which they are once again receiving exactly the same energy and effort in protecting their benefit.

Zero.

Because you see......alpa gets exactly the same level of revenue from the pbgc benefit as they did from the promised DB payments.

Zero.

Maybe the new DALPA is cracking down on flight pay loss...and they decided to strike DALPA over the issue?

Carl

We just need to get elected to congress.

Or get better at avoiding taxes...

The Deal ? Delta will try to fly under the IRS? radar#

Exactly. Even if we are successful in getting pay raises of 22-7-7, the actual 'winner' will be the IRS, as they take their 35% cut out of our pay.

If we are going to keep a DC plan, we need to start lobbying for a much higher tax free contribution level, so we can put more of that money into our retirement funding than into Uncle Sam's pockets.

A 'tax free' DC contribution of only $58K per year, for 10 years, is only $580K, plus or minus market gains/losses.

How long do you think you can live in retirement on $580K?

Yeah. Not long.

The IRS...... and of course alpa.

Tim the toothpaste is out of the tube. Have you heard of a single initiative by alpa to do as you suggest and advocate adjusting the 415c limits..... or for exemptions of the limit for those with terminated pension plans?

Didn't think so.

At this point the answers with any prospect of success in resolving your point will be found in extracting a fixed annuity or equivalent grants of non cash compensation......i.e. stock options.

Or....a week timeshare in one Ed's Florida condos maybe.

I'm sympathetic to what you're saying, but isn't it even worse - 415C @ $53k? Not sure what ten years is tied to. Whether you could divert $53k or $58k annually over a ten year period, you'd be in some pretty lousy investments to end up with only $530,000 or $580,000, respectively. Of course it's all at risk. But market history suggests principal plus returns should yield far more than the sum of your contributions.

Anyhow, the U.S. Government is not going to raise tax deferred contribution ceilings just for airline pilots, no matter how hard we lobby. Lump us in with the other "evil high wage earners" that Obama says should "pay just a little more" to fund all the slackers, and we are a very small portion of the U.S. wage earner base. And there is zero sympathy outside our elite demographic. I'd say we will be lucky if 415C limits are adjusted for cost of living.

We really need an innovative retirement enhancement. Something like an annuity or other non-wage compensation.

Where do you guys that are desperate for a DB plan, think pension funds are invested? In the stock and bond markets.

Anyone who thinks their pensions are immune to stock market fluctuations are incorrect. The only differences are that a manager charges exorbitant rates to manage pension fund money, and it can be taken from you. I'd much rather manage on my own or with an RIA(look it up), and not worry about the lawyers taking it in BK!

GoPro stock, what could go wrong?:eek:

Or a younger wife to pay the bills while I am fishing.

How about flying until age 102. :(

Marcal.....that is true...... but in the case of a pension trust, in the event of ROI setbacks the payout obligation is not diminished. The trustee has to reach into operating revenues and make beneficiaries whole.

Not that I'm advocating DB plans.... their record is dismal.

Had alpa exercised even the minimum of fiduciary responsibility and required delta to fund a secondary financial vehicle to underwrite the 40% of a pilots pension the unqualified benefit represented...... we would not be having this discussion.

At the point of BK timbo would have likely rolled a half million or more from this secondary financial vehicle into a qualified retirement account.... tax deferred. And would still have the pbgc benefit payment to offset the loss of the qualified component.

Instead..... from the time timbo came to work, contract after contract, alpa told delta..." you only have to save enough to pay HALF of timbos pension, because..... after all...we trust you are good for the rest".....

Stupidity would be too kind of a descriptive. Particularly in light of the backdrop of eastern, pan am, and on and on. Arrogant ignorance is what it was... plain and simple.

And so far as alpa goes.... nothing has changed.






;

Any idea what "pilot responsibility pay, eg door pay" is or a value? I'm guessing it extra pay for each leg flown for preflight duties.

The clock for pay will start when the the door closes to when it opens. Usually it's a few extra minutes a flight.

Most airlines start paying their pilots the second the main door closes. At Delta Air Lines, we are paid when the main door and cargo doors are closed. Plus Beacon on and a little nudge on the nose wheel by the tug.

The way Delta does it now, saves them quit a bit of coin in the long run.

TEN

They basically opened at my my minimum. I don't see room to grow. This is a no vote for me. I'll chill under 2012 until we can get it right. Our union has lost its mind.

If we have an apu fire between door close and push, I'm
going to sue the company.

36% pay raise in 3 years is nothing to shy away from. Compound it. Without touching profit sharing. If you get 20% from profit sharing and the 36%, this will pass. I might add with no concessions, I'm done giving.

That being said, I understand your feeling, this is pretty much my minimum. We've given so much, it's payback time. Delta is debt free, buying back stock and paying dividends thanks to the sacrifices of us. 50% pay cuts and lost pensions are not forgotten.

Clearly it's been forgotten.

It bums me out that we opened with our bottom. Money doesn't drive my decisions, qol does.

It bums me out that the weekly memo from SD says "we" will review "ALPA's" opener along a traditional route. Doesn't he have a seniority number? Which we is he supposed to be?

I can't tell where the company ends and the union begins.

Depending on where you are pushing back from, it's a lot of coin.

That statement is meant to test the backpack wearers versus the backpack doffers.

The only backpack I'm wearing is orange.

It has always amazed me that management pilots are also ALPA members.

Disciplined, harassed, even fired....by a "union" "brother." What a ****ed up arrangement.

Me too, I prefer to fly Nice, Rome or Athens on Tuesdays. But, money makes the world go round. There is a finite amount of money they will part with. That's all I got to say about that.

Question to anyone, why do we allow that?

While I agree, this would be the minimum I expect too, I'm not looking at this as an opener. At some point, we are going to meet some arbitrators, and they are going to judge us by how reasonable our proposal is. If we can show them that our table position is reasonable, it doesn't matter if it is our starter or the result of 5 years of protracted negotiations.

What I'm reading from the tea leaves is that JM thinks we are headed for a little brinksmanship and will find ourselves in front of an arbitrator in March, therefore, he is hitting the company between the eyes. This is what we expect and this is what we are willing to fight for, and if we end up in arbitration, our position is reasonable.

I hope I'm right....the company knows we will not roll over for pay rates alone...despite gold fingers criticism. They have to know its going to take more than 8, ps conv, 3,3. After United's contract extension, the 22% is going to bring us to parity, or in the range. After that, if they want to fight, I'm sure we can gather enough information about our proposal vs our peers to show how reasonable we are being. This contract proposal will not put us too far ahead them, if at all.

is it binding arbitration? I hope not I'm saving my profit sharing for my strike fund and do not want another terd TA forced down our thoats.

No, it not any type of arbitration - it is mediation, which is basically meaningless. It can certainly slow things down, but nothing can be forced upon us.

I think a lot of guys are confusing the two. Here is a primer:



ARBITRATION AND MEDIATION

Arbitration and mediation are parts of the labor relations process. Arbitration is the procedure by which parties agree to submit their disputes to an independent neutral third party, known as an arbitrator. Although there are several types of arbitration, labor arbitration is the dispute resolution procedure used in labor relations. Mediation also involves the active participation of a neutral third party whose role is to facilitate the dispute resolution process and to suggest solutions to resolve disputes. The term conciliation is often used interchangeably with mediation, but conciliation generally refers to the third party who brings the disputing parties together. While the mediator suggests possible solutions to the disputing parties, the arbitrator makes a final decision on the labor dispute which is binding on the parties.



Scoop :)