We know for sure the UAL TA is 19% above our A 330 and 767-400 rates 1/1/16. We know we will never accepting penny less without touching profit sharing. Which is within a tiny percentage of United's.

Regardless of their vote totals.

Some people have said that our opener is pretty close to what our final should be and I have to agree. If United passes their TA they will have jumped us in pay and retained their profit sharing which basically mirrors ours with their threshold for 20% being at 2.7 billion instead of 2.5 billion in ours.

I know that we should not compare ourselves to the other employee groups, however if we do go to mediation and eventually arbitration it should be pretty easy to show that the other employee groups at Delta have leaped well ahead of their pre-giveback rates while we still lag significantly.

The FA's are the only group that have their rates readily available and they are about 18.6% above their pre-giveback rates (based on a 100 hour month). I would have to assume that the other employee groups current rates have jumped by about the same amount.

I have never heard anyone mention arbitration. I haven't given it much thought but I don't really seeing us going to arbitration.

Scoop

IMO 100% of the mediators focus will be on pilots and how we out distance our competitors by a huge margin.

Our contract must put distance our competitors by that same huge margin.

Why not? Our current contract does. We need to do substantially better than our current contract for a yes.

No, not yet. I have a CJO so I'm watching this closely. While I may not be able to vote on it, I will be working under it. I also completely agree with the post after this that DAL should just pony up and do the right thing.

Object Lesson:

Come back and re-read your post after 3 years on property and see if your perspective changes. To strengthen the lesson, consider listing your top 5 priorities for today's TA, and compare them to your top 5 priorities 3 years from now. Finally, imagine what your TA priorities will be in 10 years with (potentially) 15-20 more years remaining on property.

--break--

Here's a "thank you" to our negotiating team. They have a challenge meeting the demands of our motley pilot group!

Well that escalated quickly! I was just curious, geez guys, go easy on the new guy 🙄.

It's a rough crowd :). Don't worry, I've found the cockpit less contentious than the interwebs. I think most people are just frustrated at how the company is always talking about how much it cares about it's people, how much they love us and want the best for us, when in reality we're nothing more than a business expense. If they can be friendly without it costing a dime, they will often do so but if there is a cost associated then "doing the right thing" doesn't mean squat. If your hotel room means RA can't get that 69th set of platinum cuff links that match the dress his wife might wear to some future charity ball, well you're SOL unless we give something up for it in negotiations.

The lottery is so big right now, I just don't think that big.

Spot on. Richie Rich and Sleepless Ed are not our buddies contrary to what some kool aid drinking lca's and Moakists will tell you. We are labor and a cost to be managed to them. They will happily smile at you and then take what they can from you if it meant putting one more penny in their bank account. The only way we will see restoration around here is when it starts costing our so called leaders some of their own hard earned cash. Money talks.

Yup, I get all that. Some regionals used to be "pay for training" or they didn't consider you employee until you completed OE, all on top of first year pay that qualified you for food stamps. But you won't find the guys who went through that advocating that their predecessors must go through the same trials in order to prove their metal. Every two bit regional provides hotels all through training, even Delta's wholly owned. They all provide lodging for FA's as well. Every other major provides hotels. It seems to me the union could make it clear they are not willing to spend negotiating capital on an issue that the company should be ashamed to have not addressed long ago. And seriously, how much could this really cost them? They bought an oil refinery. Why don't they buy the Crowne Plaza?


Regarding the ESPP, if they have one it must be top secret. Nobody I've talked to knows anything about it. Can anybody elaborate?

United guy here... Flew with an old school UAL captain a few days ago whose a yes voter (never voted yes before) on our TA and explained it like this (I'm paraphrasing a 2 hour conversation:

"Delta has never, allowed themselves to be paid less than us. Ever. By voting yes for this two year extension and jumping them in pay while keeping our PS, we give them a stool to stand on to raise the bar even further. If they pass us in pay again maybe the snap up plays, maybe it doesn't but we'll have gotten a raise and Delta will have raised the bar when we go back into Sec 6 in three years."

No one I know thinks this TA will fail, probably in the 68/32 range give or take a few points, we'll know on the 22nd... Then it's up to you guys.

Delta makes in profits what this lottery is worth every few months.



We need a bigger raise...

..........so we can buy more lottery tickets. :D

He is a smart man.

We asked, now we are being ignored. Awaiting next catalyst.

We will be ignored until Jan 22nd. If the United TA extension passes, I think they will accept our proposal.

If United passes the TA and Delta counters with something lower, there will be 12,000 backpacks hitting the floor in one loud THUD.

Excellent point, RA has paid himself 2-5 times more than other airline CEO's since he's been at Delta. What's good for the goose..

Richard already bought the winning ticket, but WE paid for it. :rolleyes:

Where did most of that $6 Billion in profit come from?

US!

I agree.

TEN

A movie is never as funny when I have to explain to my wife. That said, I guess I need to be the clueless one. Can you please explain how a passed UAL TA helps our cause? Is it just because our proposed TA2 would be just slightly higher than the UAL TA and therefore easier to argue at arbitration?

They don't give up any profit sharing...and only grant minor relief on a couple of issues

Exaxtly. Our profit sharing is now off the table as well as all concessions from the failed TA.

We need a minimum of 19% 1/1/16 just to match UAL A 330 and 767-400.

And matching is not good enough to pass MEMRAT.

I agree on both counts.

Small point. It's mediation. We never do arbotration. Arbitration is binding.

Sounds like a pretty huge point :). I know the difference between the two but didn't know that we'd only mediate. I assume the reason behind this would be overly company-friendly arbitrators would not give us a fair shake?

Just think if you got a dollar each time you posted that clarification...

I would prefer the UAL TA does not pass. The entire mediation process is geared to driving the solution to industry average. Overall if you applied the United TA rates to our fleet the rates are lower then our rejected TA. We can talk all day about the 330 rate but if you look at the other rates it's not good!
UAL 767-254
Delta TA1 260

UAL 757-245
Delta TA1 260

UAL 737-235
Delta TA1 250

UAL A320-245 A319-235
Delta TA1 241

These should be sobering numbers. Delta management would jump at these payrates. I would prefer UAL to go back to the table!

Yes we have crazy pay banding and I see what you're doing, that is an entirely different topic, but at least show both sides of our TA rates with 0 profit sharing giveback. These are DOS rates.

767-400 - 305.49

757-300. - 254.70

737-800/900 - 245.80 (about 85% of our Guppies are 800/900)

Just keeping it apples to apples.

Big difference is they didn't swap any profit sharing to get those pay rates are the other concessionary things in the TA1 nobody wanted to give. If you subtract out the 6% percent profit sharing conversion UAL comes out ahead on most fleets. Plus we didn't give up the precedent of giving up profit sharing to get pay raises.

Pretty much....Alaska tried arbitration several years ago with pilot-unfriendly results. Arbitrators are judges without a robe - their decisions are final and are extremely hard to appeal, much less overturn. Mediators are more of a warm milk and Oreos group that want the parties to hug and maybe sing some Kumbaya.

If we end up in binding arbitration and don't like the final result we could always pull a page from USAirways playbook.

That would be awesome.

But we would need another collective bargaining agent.....ohhhhh......right!

Their profit sharing is the same that we have currently. They sold back zero profit sharing to get those rates, so you're not comparing it properly. Not to mention when factoring in profit sharing, they come ahead of our TA.

By the way, their freezes are less onerous than we have now all across the board already.

:rolleyes:AND....how many 777's do they have, and how many E190's?

Yeah, there's that.

Delta is the world's biggest small airplane Major airline.:rolleyes:

Exactly! (filler filler)

Our 2%ers. The number of people who can hold premium pay.

What do they have, like over 100 777s and 744s?

But, you know what they dont have?


Redneck Rockets bought off liquidation. :D

2015 flight ops goal.


Complete negotiations on a new Pilot Working Agreement prior to the amendable date

2016 flight ops goal.

Crickets on the contract or a new movie called "The Big Stall"

It's entertaining to hear from you throw away account guys. Brand new to APC with a clear agenda.

What I don't get is why you have it out to sandbag your fellow pilots.

Somehow your ilk cannot compute concessions and profit sharing giveaways. I just flew with a guy who kept touting how much he's lost in wages from not accepting TA15. I asked him how much he calculated for the loss in PS and the other concessions and he had no answer.

This is exactly why your in the 35 percentile, very bad at math. I think it's time for you to listen to the smart guys in the room instead of blowing your horn.

If you can't do that, then just listen. You clearly don't get it.