Delta Captain Upgrade
03-17-2016 | 05:35 PM
#41
ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
No, I'm saying that an MD-88 is not the same kind of plane as the one that someone has possibly flown before, i.e. A regional jet or 737 for example. In the even of an emergency, do I really want someone who has pretty much been on reserve for most of their new career at Delta, someone who has had possibly one PC prior to upgrade and then move into the left seat of an entirely new aircraft? And, you're going to rely on training and IOE to "season" someone enough to become a CA?
Let's imagine this CA, who has been on property for a year and a half with a month or two experience in the MD-88 has an incident, heaven forbid. The class action lawsuit that would result from this would be unimaginable. Then, just imagine Congress' response. The risk management alone is making my head hurt.
Seriously Packrat, I'm really starting to question if you're actually a pilot or just a groupie.
Let's imagine this CA, who has been on property for a year and a half with a month or two experience in the MD-88 has an incident, heaven forbid. The class action lawsuit that would result from this would be unimaginable. Then, just imagine Congress' response. The risk management alone is making my head hurt.
Seriously Packrat, I'm really starting to question if you're actually a pilot or just a groupie.
The airline we work for now is/was upgrading people in 2.5 years and some of these pilots have never sat left seat of any 121 airline before.
03-17-2016 | 05:38 PM
#42
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
I didn't. And maybe they were FOs in the MD-88, maybe they flew MD-88s at a previous airline, it's not the point.
I'm raising the point that there is no ORM/risk management setup like we had in the AF. I was an ADO in charge of signing orders and vetting crews. If Delta has the same system, then all is great. Sounds like they have a CP who looks at crew makeup and decides maybe this Captain shouldn't fly with this FO because of lack of experience or lack of currency. I'm not sure that's the case.
Look, I know guys come to the major airlines with PIC time, plenty of hours, plenty of experience, it's not a question of how many flight hours. It comes down to regression, it comes down to system knowledge, it comes down to experience in the airframe.
You guys are saying there's no issue at all with someone with no time in type being the Captain, fine. I wouldn't want my family on that plane.
I'm raising the point that there is no ORM/risk management setup like we had in the AF. I was an ADO in charge of signing orders and vetting crews. If Delta has the same system, then all is great. Sounds like they have a CP who looks at crew makeup and decides maybe this Captain shouldn't fly with this FO because of lack of experience or lack of currency. I'm not sure that's the case.
Look, I know guys come to the major airlines with PIC time, plenty of hours, plenty of experience, it's not a question of how many flight hours. It comes down to regression, it comes down to system knowledge, it comes down to experience in the airframe.
You guys are saying there's no issue at all with someone with no time in type being the Captain, fine. I wouldn't want my family on that plane.
Back in the 1980's, crusty old 727 stick and rudder, raw data, hand flying, career long 727 Captains were checking out on the brand new 'Magic' 767/757's and yes, even on Airbus'.
EVERY Captain and EVERY F/O were 'New' to the type, all flying together, at the same time!
Yet no airplanes fell out of the sky. Why is that?
The exact same thing is happening right now with the new 787's and A350's. How do you expect anyone to check out on a 'new' type if they must have 'experience in the airframe'.
Last edited by Timbo; 03-17-2016 at 05:50 PM.
03-17-2016 | 05:53 PM
#43
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Children of the magenta freaking out lol
03-17-2016 | 05:58 PM
#44
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Yes, I realize that. But, let me ask a question.
What's the length of time before you can hold a line at DAL in the 737? How many hours can you expect to fly in a year and five months?
Hours prior to being hired aside, because they can vary greatly, how many hours will a pilot at DAL accrue in the first year and five months of being on property?
Isn't the normal track: narrow body FO, wide body FO, narrow body CA, wide body CA? Of course there's going to be movement, and there will possibly be individuals who have never flown a type becoming a CA in that type, but they've usually been on property flying for a number of years, accumulating quite a few hours in the process.
The possibility here is you could have an FO hired into the 757/767 for the first year and a half at DAL, an FO who probably isn't holding a line during that time (admittedly, I'm not at DAL so if you're a line holder within a couple of months on the 757/767 obviously this doesn't apply), and they can hold CA on a MD-88, a type they've probably not flown before their OE except in the simulator. That new MD-88 captain may have xx hours (going off the forums here, again an extremely dodgy proposition, but a year and a half in the 757 as a newhire, maybe 250 hours of seat time?) on property and no one sees a safety issue with this?
There hasn't even been a mention of being paired with a newhire FO, let's say he has 250-300 hours in the MD-88, more than that new CA, no one sees a safety issue here?
I'll acquiesce the point here, good for him/her/them. I really hope nothing ever goes wrong.
What's the length of time before you can hold a line at DAL in the 737? How many hours can you expect to fly in a year and five months?
Hours prior to being hired aside, because they can vary greatly, how many hours will a pilot at DAL accrue in the first year and five months of being on property?
Isn't the normal track: narrow body FO, wide body FO, narrow body CA, wide body CA? Of course there's going to be movement, and there will possibly be individuals who have never flown a type becoming a CA in that type, but they've usually been on property flying for a number of years, accumulating quite a few hours in the process.
The possibility here is you could have an FO hired into the 757/767 for the first year and a half at DAL, an FO who probably isn't holding a line during that time (admittedly, I'm not at DAL so if you're a line holder within a couple of months on the 757/767 obviously this doesn't apply), and they can hold CA on a MD-88, a type they've probably not flown before their OE except in the simulator. That new MD-88 captain may have xx hours (going off the forums here, again an extremely dodgy proposition, but a year and a half in the 757 as a newhire, maybe 250 hours of seat time?) on property and no one sees a safety issue with this?
There hasn't even been a mention of being paired with a newhire FO, let's say he has 250-300 hours in the MD-88, more than that new CA, no one sees a safety issue here?
I'll acquiesce the point here, good for him/her/them. I really hope nothing ever goes wrong.
Personally, I think they're crazy. But, I hope the best for them.
I don't think of it as a safety issue per se. Generally, internalize the MELs, Sid to an ILS, LGA sucks. If there's a dual engine failure or something else catastrophic well, that's situation dependent on the outcome.
03-17-2016 | 05:58 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
From: Heavies
Yes, I realize that. But, let me ask a question.
What's the length of time before you can hold a line at DAL in the 737? How many hours can you expect to fly in a year and five months?
Hours prior to being hired aside, because they can vary greatly, how many hours will a pilot at DAL accrue in the first year and five months of being on property?
Isn't the normal track: narrow body FO, wide body FO, narrow body CA, wide body CA? Of course there's going to be movement, and there will possibly be individuals who have never flown a type becoming a CA in that type, but they've usually been on property flying for a number of years, accumulating quite a few hours in the process.
The possibility here is you could have an FO hired into the 757/767 for the first year and a half at DAL, an FO who probably isn't holding a line during that time (admittedly, I'm not at DAL so if you're a line holder within a couple of months on the 757/767 obviously this doesn't apply), and they can hold CA on a MD-88, a type they've probably not flown before their OE except in the simulator. That new MD-88 captain may have xx hours (going off the forums here, again an extremely dodgy proposition, but a year and a half in the 757 as a newhire, maybe 250 hours of seat time?) on property and no one sees a safety issue with this?
There hasn't even been a mention of being paired with a newhire FO, let's say he has 250-300 hours in the MD-88, more than that new CA, no one sees a safety issue here?
I'll acquiesce the point here, good for him/her/them. I really hope nothing ever goes wrong.
What's the length of time before you can hold a line at DAL in the 737? How many hours can you expect to fly in a year and five months?
Hours prior to being hired aside, because they can vary greatly, how many hours will a pilot at DAL accrue in the first year and five months of being on property?
Isn't the normal track: narrow body FO, wide body FO, narrow body CA, wide body CA? Of course there's going to be movement, and there will possibly be individuals who have never flown a type becoming a CA in that type, but they've usually been on property flying for a number of years, accumulating quite a few hours in the process.
The possibility here is you could have an FO hired into the 757/767 for the first year and a half at DAL, an FO who probably isn't holding a line during that time (admittedly, I'm not at DAL so if you're a line holder within a couple of months on the 757/767 obviously this doesn't apply), and they can hold CA on a MD-88, a type they've probably not flown before their OE except in the simulator. That new MD-88 captain may have xx hours (going off the forums here, again an extremely dodgy proposition, but a year and a half in the 757 as a newhire, maybe 250 hours of seat time?) on property and no one sees a safety issue with this?
There hasn't even been a mention of being paired with a newhire FO, let's say he has 250-300 hours in the MD-88, more than that new CA, no one sees a safety issue here?
I'll acquiesce the point here, good for him/her/them. I really hope nothing ever goes wrong.
03-17-2016 | 06:32 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 496
Likes: 0
I flew the -88 for a year. Yes, it's a different animal. Yes, it takes some getting used to. The good news is, those new Captains will be getting a lot of experience quickly. When it comes down to it, it's an airplane, not too different from all the other ones out there. The safety record speaks for itself. The system works.
03-17-2016 | 07:06 PM
#49
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
It's a cool thing. It's not all bliss. But it's cool. Glad someone is willing to do it.
03-17-2016 | 07:08 PM
#50
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
I flew the -88 for a year. Yes, it's a different animal. Yes, it takes some getting used to. The good news is, those new Captains will be getting a lot of experience quickly. When it comes down to it, it's an airplane, not too different from all the other ones out there. The safety record speaks for itself. The system works.
If you keep pulling back, it comes down!
. The rest is just fluff.
If you can walk away afterwards, great landing!
If they can use the airplane again, EXCELLENT landing!
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