Latest Negotiator's Notepad
05-24-2016 | 08:19 AM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 1
If all you can perceive as wrong with the status quo is an argument over vacation, then your sarcasm I suppose is appropriate.
My guess is a lot of us see a lot more wrong with the relationship with management..... and understand fully the point I was attempting to make.
My guess is a lot of us see a lot more wrong with the relationship with management..... and understand fully the point I was attempting to make.
05-24-2016 | 08:22 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
I commented on exactly what you said. And good lord, we have nothing in front of us to vote on and you are already advocating a no vote.
05-24-2016 | 08:31 AM
#143
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 1
If the starting point to concede from is the published mec re-opener, money it may only take something one dimensional like devaluing vacation to tip the scales to 'no' for a lot of this group.
Anyone believing management is entertaining a uniformly net improvement PWA......absent the threat/implementation of self help..... is only kidding themselves.
Anyone believing management is entertaining a uniformly net improvement PWA......absent the threat/implementation of self help..... is only kidding themselves.
05-24-2016 | 10:03 AM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
Likes: 0
From: Kickin’ Back
As I've stated before, I think it's a bad idea, but if I could get my pension back in trade for it, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I suspect a lot of our peers would too. I think, in this case, the benefit would far outweigh the concession.
Denny
05-24-2016 | 10:07 AM
#145
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
Likes: 0
From: Kickin’ Back
That is a great observation.
My point in asking that was that I have seen a lot of guys saying things like "we needd to be protected from ourselves". I disagree. If we do get vacation sell back and a lot of guys use it then is it not something that a majority of giuys want? To blanketly say 'no' to this is a minority imposing their will.
I personally don't like it, because it stagnates the international widebody movement but hey, whatever the group wants.
My point in asking that was that I have seen a lot of guys saying things like "we needd to be protected from ourselves". I disagree. If we do get vacation sell back and a lot of guys use it then is it not something that a majority of giuys want? To blanketly say 'no' to this is a minority imposing their will.
I personally don't like it, because it stagnates the international widebody movement but hey, whatever the group wants.
Dennyc
05-24-2016 | 10:21 AM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Edit: And once again this can be tied to the pay methodology. Fix that and this is a non issue.
05-24-2016 | 10:32 AM
#147
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,253
Likes: 96
From: DAL 330
Well here is something to think about. If the company is saying that vacation sell back is meeting the Pilots needs then how about this:
If Pilot A sells back 2 weeks in July those 2 weeks get rebid and another Pilot can now get a July vacation. If the 2 weeks just get wiped off the books completely then its not really helping the Pilots but helping the company with manning.
Like Bob said previously, if all the senior guys sell their summer vacations and they are not re-bid then this should not count as a plus for the Pilots but a productivity concession.
If the company/DALPA want to sell this as beneficial to the Pilot group then let the guys who could not hold summer vacations roll their February/October vacations into any summer months that are sold.
As with anything else the Devil is in the details. Although I am against vacation sellbacks it can be wisely crafted to benefit the Pilot group or it can go the way these things usually go.
Scoop
If Pilot A sells back 2 weeks in July those 2 weeks get rebid and another Pilot can now get a July vacation. If the 2 weeks just get wiped off the books completely then its not really helping the Pilots but helping the company with manning.
Like Bob said previously, if all the senior guys sell their summer vacations and they are not re-bid then this should not count as a plus for the Pilots but a productivity concession.
If the company/DALPA want to sell this as beneficial to the Pilot group then let the guys who could not hold summer vacations roll their February/October vacations into any summer months that are sold.
As with anything else the Devil is in the details. Although I am against vacation sellbacks it can be wisely crafted to benefit the Pilot group or it can go the way these things usually go.
Scoop
05-24-2016 | 10:35 AM
#148
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 1
While some are economically benefitting from OE trip drops.... its not a valid comparison at all to vacation.
Now.....tell the pilot group management is going to reach into the pool of available vacation weeks prior to any bid/award process....and 'set aside' 25% of them exclusively for use at managements discretion?
Now you are apples to apples. And I'm guessing the reaction would be equally vehement in opposition.
P.S. you know, there is absolutely nothing standing in way of management stuffing 3K pounds of sand in the forward bin, along with a full tank of gas and NO PAX.....and sending LCAs out with new pilots to bounce and fly around the system to get the required OE.
Nothing at all
Now.....tell the pilot group management is going to reach into the pool of available vacation weeks prior to any bid/award process....and 'set aside' 25% of them exclusively for use at managements discretion?
Now you are apples to apples. And I'm guessing the reaction would be equally vehement in opposition.
P.S. you know, there is absolutely nothing standing in way of management stuffing 3K pounds of sand in the forward bin, along with a full tank of gas and NO PAX.....and sending LCAs out with new pilots to bounce and fly around the system to get the required OE.
Nothing at all
Last edited by BobZ; 05-24-2016 at 10:59 AM.
05-24-2016 | 11:05 AM
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Well here is something to think about. If the company is saying that vacation sell back is meeting the Pilots needs then how about this:
If Pilot A sells back 2 weeks in July those 2 weeks get rebid and another Pilot can now get a July vacation. If the 2 weeks just get wiped off the books completely then its not really helping the Pilots but helping the company with manning.
Like Bob said previously, if all the senior guys sell their summer vacations and they are not re-bid then this should not count as a plus for the Pilots but a productivity concession.
If the company/DALPA want to sell this as beneficial to the Pilot group then let the guys who could not hold summer vacations roll their February/October vacations into any summer months that are sold.
As with anything else the Devil is in the details. Although I am against vacation sellbacks it can be wisely crafted to benefit the Pilot group or it can go the way these things usually go.
Scoop
If Pilot A sells back 2 weeks in July those 2 weeks get rebid and another Pilot can now get a July vacation. If the 2 weeks just get wiped off the books completely then its not really helping the Pilots but helping the company with manning.
Like Bob said previously, if all the senior guys sell their summer vacations and they are not re-bid then this should not count as a plus for the Pilots but a productivity concession.
If the company/DALPA want to sell this as beneficial to the Pilot group then let the guys who could not hold summer vacations roll their February/October vacations into any summer months that are sold.
As with anything else the Devil is in the details. Although I am against vacation sellbacks it can be wisely crafted to benefit the Pilot group or it can go the way these things usually go.
Scoop
05-24-2016 | 11:08 AM
#150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
While some are economically benefitting from OE trip drops.... its not a valid comparison at all to vacation.
Now.....tell the pilot group management is going to reach into the pool of available vacation weeks prior to any bid/award process....and 'set aside' 25% of them exclusively for use at managements discretion?
Now you are apples to apples. And I'm guessing the reaction would be equally vehement in opposition.
P.S. you know, there is absolutely nothing standing in way of management stuffing 3K pounds of sand in the forward bin, along with a full tank of gas and NO PAX.....and sending LCAs out with new pilots to bounce and fly around the system to get the required OE.
Nothing at all
Now.....tell the pilot group management is going to reach into the pool of available vacation weeks prior to any bid/award process....and 'set aside' 25% of them exclusively for use at managements discretion?
Now you are apples to apples. And I'm guessing the reaction would be equally vehement in opposition.
P.S. you know, there is absolutely nothing standing in way of management stuffing 3K pounds of sand in the forward bin, along with a full tank of gas and NO PAX.....and sending LCAs out with new pilots to bounce and fly around the system to get the required OE.
Nothing at all
P.S. There is nothing at all requiring FOs to be released from OEs either.
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