Latest Negotiator's Notepad
05-21-2016, 01:32 PM
#101
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,876
Originally Posted by JamesBond
I did not make this a junior/senior issue. What I asaw in the post about 'young guys coming on board and having resolve' is chilling to me as an older guy. They have the world by the balls right now, and it will be easy to **** the senoior group going forward. 14 month mainline captains. Good for them. Timing is everything. resolve BY them to be 'made whole' will still not restore my pension nor fund my retitrement and I still fail to see where they have been harmed in all of this. yup. THEY can wait. Truth be told, so can I but from what I have seen many in my peer group cannot. But I guess they don't matter.
Fire away
Fire away
Nothing to fire at - I agree with you. If you were not here there is nothing to "regain." I don't blame junior guys for not wanting to continue down the path of "unlocking value" and trading QOL for pay. I do not blame the senior guys leaving in 2-4 years for voting yes.
There are however plenty of guys who were here, who lost everything you did who voted no. As we all know it went down in flames by 2-1. Plenty of your contemporaries do not see it exactly as you do.
This is the needle the NC will to thread - get enough of a total compensation increase to have it strongly ratified.
Scoop
05-21-2016, 02:03 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by Scoop
Nothing to fire at - I agree with you. If you were not here there is nothing to "regain." I don't blame junior guys for not wanting to continue down the path of "unlocking value" and trading QOL for pay. I do not blame the senior guys leaving in 2-4 years for voting yes.
There are however plenty of guys who were here, who lost everything you did who voted no. As we all know it went down in flames by 2-1. Plenty of your contemporaries do not see it exactly as you do.
This is the needle the NC will to thread - get enough of a total compensation increase to have it strongly ratified.
Scoop
There are however plenty of guys who were here, who lost everything you did who voted no. As we all know it went down in flames by 2-1. Plenty of your contemporaries do not see it exactly as you do.
This is the needle the NC will to thread - get enough of a total compensation increase to have it strongly ratified.
Scoop
05-21-2016, 04:02 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Working 5 to 9
Posts: 518
Originally Posted by Gunfighter
Holding all variables constant except for hourly rates and profit sharing, your statement is correct. The flaw in this train of logic is that NA15 did not hold all variables constant. The layers of concessions throughout the contract created multiple changes to individual compensation. The junior cadre of 330 FOs would not be there if the senior 7ER FOs lost LCA trip buys. For them, the accurate earning comparison is C2012 A330 pay vs NA15 7ER pay. The lost of international flying due to the scope concession would have reduced the number of block hours at the higher pay rates as well. These are just two of MANY examples where multiple variables outside of payrates impact overall compensation.
We're playing a game of chess here, let's analyze the entire board and look several moves ahead.
We're playing a game of chess here, let's analyze the entire board and look several moves ahead.
05-21-2016, 04:40 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,057
Originally Posted by JamesBond
No one is saying we need to rush.
Just out of curiosity though, how long past the amendable date do you expect full retroactivity?
Just out of curiosity though, how long past the amendable date do you expect full retroactivity?
Hopefully my tough times are behind me but it will still be some time before I hold captain because I choose QOL over pay. Captain means little to me, been there done that, and LCA too. Does it matter how many people were sitting behind me? I hope you don't "suffer" in your last years under C2012 but that will be up to Delta management and our peers. Your sacrifices may be equally impactful but I've already done my hard time and adjusted my life accordingly.
I have a great deal of patience knowing the environment we are in. They say this career is all about timing, it appears mine was (as bad or) worse than yours. If you retire under C2012, it won't be from lack of effort on my part. The blame lays with the hypocritical management we work for. $8 billion for losses on fuel, $10 billion in debt paid off since the merger, $7 billion in shareholder returns and no money for you and I to return to wages before bankruptcy.
They are greedy, plain and simple. They have rewarded themselves and returned every other position at this company to more than it paid before bankruptcy. This was done more than 2 years ago, prior to the profit sharing take back and those employees still have a pension even if it's capped. How much pension or PBGC claim do we "young guys" have? Ask one next time you see one. Its our time now! And by our I mean all Delta pilots.
Last edited by notEnuf; 05-21-2016 at 04:54 PM.
05-21-2016, 04:51 PM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,918
Originally Posted by notEnuf
As long as it takes. That's not me being flippant that's resolve. I could spend 21 more years working for Delta. In my mid-forties, I am no new comer but in Delta seniority I guess I'd be considered junior. 24 years of flying commercially and I represent the "young guys?" That's the problem. This career has gone nowhere since I started and I am not going to continue that trend during these, best ever economic times.
Hopefully my tough times are behind me but it will still be some time before I hold captain because I choose QOL over pay. Captain means little to me, been there done that, and LCA too. Does it matter how many people were sitting behind me? I hope you don't "suffer" in your last years under C2012 but that will be up to Delta management and our peers. Your sacrifices may be equally impactful but I've already done my hard time and adjusted my life accordingly.
I have a great deal of patience knowing the environment we are in. They say this career is all about timing, it appears mine was (as bad or) worse than yours. If you retire under C2012, it won't be from lack of effort on my part. The blame lays with the hypocritical management we work for. $8 billion for losses on fuel, $10 billion in debt paid off since the merger, $7 billion in shareholder returns and no money for you and I to return to wages before bankruptcy.
They are greedy, plain and simple. They have rewarded themselves and returned every other position at this company to more than it paid before bankruptcy over 2 years ago. Its our time now!
Hopefully my tough times are behind me but it will still be some time before I hold captain because I choose QOL over pay. Captain means little to me, been there done that, and LCA too. Does it matter how many people were sitting behind me? I hope you don't "suffer" in your last years under C2012 but that will be up to Delta management and our peers. Your sacrifices may be equally impactful but I've already done my hard time and adjusted my life accordingly.
I have a great deal of patience knowing the environment we are in. They say this career is all about timing, it appears mine was (as bad or) worse than yours. If you retire under C2012, it won't be from lack of effort on my part. The blame lays with the hypocritical management we work for. $8 billion for losses on fuel, $10 billion in debt paid off since the merger, $7 billion in shareholder returns and no money for you and I to return to wages before bankruptcy.
They are greedy, plain and simple. They have rewarded themselves and returned every other position at this company to more than it paid before bankruptcy over 2 years ago. Its our time now!
05-22-2016, 08:43 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,473
Originally Posted by WhatNow
Yet you just made a post advocating for a concession that would eliminate a significant number of Captains jobs and a lessor number of FO jobs.
The suggested trade off was for additional vacation weeks in the summer before allowing vacation sell back. Additional vacation weeks in the summer creates jobs, because it increases the number of pilots required on our seniority list for coverage of the peak summer season. 100% of the additional vacation weeks in the summer would have to be sold back before impacting jobs. I know we have plenty of hour whorxx, but I'd take a gamble that summer vacations wouldn't be the ones sold back. The likely vacation sell back would be in the months with low ALV where they would be used to cover the alimony, house, car, boat, etc. payments. Selling back vacation in a month where reserve staffing is above required just means the reserve pilots sit home more while the vacation sellers work more.
05-22-2016, 05:34 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Wishful thinking.
Desired vacation weeks will be bid by most senior. Who will then sell them back because theta have the seniority to get the days off they want anyways.
Speaking as one in that boat.... and understanding as with g's.... the vacation 'buy' back to management will undoubtedly not be all inclusive, it will likely be a 'competitive' and seniority based award.
Management isn't going to be shopping for vacation weeks in the slow months. It will be at peak traffic and category shortage triggers.
Why would I bid an October vacation.... with ZERO chance of buy back.... when I can bid and hold 5 weeks in the middle of summer with a near certain buy back window?
Soak up the summer vacation weeks. Get paid for them. Then fly the summer, plus OT...... and bid to have my Oktoberfest vacation on days off.
And that's the way that cookie will crumble.
Desired vacation weeks will be bid by most senior. Who will then sell them back because theta have the seniority to get the days off they want anyways.
Speaking as one in that boat.... and understanding as with g's.... the vacation 'buy' back to management will undoubtedly not be all inclusive, it will likely be a 'competitive' and seniority based award.
Management isn't going to be shopping for vacation weeks in the slow months. It will be at peak traffic and category shortage triggers.
Why would I bid an October vacation.... with ZERO chance of buy back.... when I can bid and hold 5 weeks in the middle of summer with a near certain buy back window?
Soak up the summer vacation weeks. Get paid for them. Then fly the summer, plus OT...... and bid to have my Oktoberfest vacation on days off.
And that's the way that cookie will crumble.
Last edited by BobZ; 05-22-2016 at 05:46 PM.
05-22-2016, 07:25 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,057
I wonder how much of the contract is new language for the purpose of churn. Managers are paid to manage and are promoted by managing well or reducing costs while improving revenue.
It is hard to find efficiencies when the contract has been around for awhile. I think each time the language changes there are managers and lawyers ready to prod and test any part that could possibly be taken advantage of.
The deal you think you are getting is often not the deal you get. Why are there two grievances over profit sharing currently? Why were the non-cons given an unprecedented raise? Why twice in one year? Why on December first when their other adjustments were January 1st? Why are we being asked to reduce our 100hr no questions asked sick leave policy? The answer is because they don't like the deal and are exploiting it to change it in their favor.
Management is paid to manage. We are paid to operated aircraft safely and on time. Who has the advantage when trying to exploit the agreement? Probably the individual who's full time job is to do just that. If a pilot finds a way legally but maybe not as originally intended, to take advantage of that agreement it is considered dishonest or some how wrong or inappropriate. We could benefit from a numbers only contract. Rates are numbers, vacation and training value are numbers, even per diem is a number.
It is hard to find efficiencies when the contract has been around for awhile. I think each time the language changes there are managers and lawyers ready to prod and test any part that could possibly be taken advantage of.
The deal you think you are getting is often not the deal you get. Why are there two grievances over profit sharing currently? Why were the non-cons given an unprecedented raise? Why twice in one year? Why on December first when their other adjustments were January 1st? Why are we being asked to reduce our 100hr no questions asked sick leave policy? The answer is because they don't like the deal and are exploiting it to change it in their favor.
Management is paid to manage. We are paid to operated aircraft safely and on time. Who has the advantage when trying to exploit the agreement? Probably the individual who's full time job is to do just that. If a pilot finds a way legally but maybe not as originally intended, to take advantage of that agreement it is considered dishonest or some how wrong or inappropriate. We could benefit from a numbers only contract. Rates are numbers, vacation and training value are numbers, even per diem is a number.
05-23-2016, 06:18 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Not...
The clear takeaway from ta15..and these insinuations of what is being entertained... is increased productivity. Do more with less. Pilots that is.
Vacation sell is really management buy. Buying labor at discount, when the additional productivity should be costing premium rates. Its a bad idea and a losing economic deal, no matter how it appears to be an 'improvement' on the front end.
I don't know about anyone else..... but I am having a hard time imagining even more of my monthly schedule being absorbed by delta.
The clear takeaway from ta15..and these insinuations of what is being entertained... is increased productivity. Do more with less. Pilots that is.
Vacation sell is really management buy. Buying labor at discount, when the additional productivity should be costing premium rates. Its a bad idea and a losing economic deal, no matter how it appears to be an 'improvement' on the front end.
I don't know about anyone else..... but I am having a hard time imagining even more of my monthly schedule being absorbed by delta.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
