Latest Negotiator's Notepad
05-21-2016 | 07:22 AM
#91
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,253
Likes: 96
From: DAL 330
I always get a chuckle reading some posters who think that Delta pilots are better off with the F/As being non-union. If that was the case then why don't Delta pilots have the highest pay rates, best work rules, and best benefits in the industry?
The reality is that just as you use pattern bargaining to bargain off of other pilot groups you also use pattern bargaining within your own company to increase the bar on benefits based on what other employee groups negotiated and with work groups even based on what F/As negotiated. Instead without no other employee group unionized you're stuck with essentially negotiating for yourselves AND everyone else since when Delta agrees to something for the pilots they know they'll have to give the same to the other employee groups to keep them from unionizing. You take that off and then you'll be able to have good pilot only medical insurance like all the other majors do (for example).
Better work rules for flight attendants would also undoubtedly effect trip construction for pilots to a certain extent, you would have means of working out issues with each unions pro stan instead of dealing with the chief pilot for every petty thing, and you'd have a more informed F/A workforce that wouldn't look at you as the enemy for having a spine and demanding real improvements when Delta is printing money.
Also, not to mention the simple fact that your dues dollars already go towards organizing other employee groups. The money that goes to ALPA international goes towards organizing other pilot groups, and the portion of your dues that goes to the AFL-CIO goes towards organizing employees from every walk of life.
Think about it...if having non-union F/As was really beneficial for Delta pilots then why do the other pilot groups support other employee groups at their airline when organizing and/or during contract negotiations? Is everyone else just stupid or is it that Delta pilots have in part also drank the Delta management kool-aid?
Just food for thought...
The reality is that just as you use pattern bargaining to bargain off of other pilot groups you also use pattern bargaining within your own company to increase the bar on benefits based on what other employee groups negotiated and with work groups even based on what F/As negotiated. Instead without no other employee group unionized you're stuck with essentially negotiating for yourselves AND everyone else since when Delta agrees to something for the pilots they know they'll have to give the same to the other employee groups to keep them from unionizing. You take that off and then you'll be able to have good pilot only medical insurance like all the other majors do (for example).
Better work rules for flight attendants would also undoubtedly effect trip construction for pilots to a certain extent, you would have means of working out issues with each unions pro stan instead of dealing with the chief pilot for every petty thing, and you'd have a more informed F/A workforce that wouldn't look at you as the enemy for having a spine and demanding real improvements when Delta is printing money.
Also, not to mention the simple fact that your dues dollars already go towards organizing other employee groups. The money that goes to ALPA international goes towards organizing other pilot groups, and the portion of your dues that goes to the AFL-CIO goes towards organizing employees from every walk of life.
Think about it...if having non-union F/As was really beneficial for Delta pilots then why do the other pilot groups support other employee groups at their airline when organizing and/or during contract negotiations? Is everyone else just stupid or is it that Delta pilots have in part also drank the Delta management kool-aid?
Just food for thought...
Very good post. The above has definitely been the prevailing mindset but I think it is starting to change.
Scoop
05-21-2016 | 09:37 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Please go on. THEY can hold out for 15-20 years to achieve "restoration" that they never lost in the first place. Meanwhile, those that were actually harmed will be thrown under the proverbial bus because they do not have the time to wait that long. You speak as if this is a good thing.
There has to be a balance.
There has to be a balance.
05-21-2016 | 11:01 AM
#94
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,508
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From: I'm here, i'm there, i'm everywhere...
Just remember...a rising tide lifts all boats. If other employee groups had the ability to negotiate a contract and improve their own benefits and work rules it would have a positive impact on pilot negotiations as well. SWAPA had a stronger argument in getting work rule improvements when the F/As had successfully negotiated higher credit times, min days, and shorter days etc. Other employee groups getting more won't take away from the pilots piece of the pie...it will take away from corporate profits. The major thing it would do is it would shift more of the power away from Delta management being able to do what they want to the employees having a bit more say. Right now Delta is outside of the JV scope and pays ALPA a small penalty. If the F/As had similar scope and Delta had to also pay the F/As for a grievance settlement (or if the F/As simply didn't settle like ALPA) then it could force Delta to comply with the JV language rather than just pay a small fine. The end result? More premium flying for ALL Delta employees.
05-21-2016 | 11:18 AM
#95
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,253
Likes: 96
From: DAL 330
Please go on. THEY can hold out for 15-20 years to achieve "restoration" that they never lost in the first place. Meanwhile, those that were actually harmed will be thrown under the proverbial bus because they do not have the time to wait that long. You speak as if this is a good thing.
There has to be a balance.
There has to be a balance.
I don't think you can make this a junior vs senior issue. 65% of the Pilot group said no with senior and junior alike both voting no.
If you do insist that we look at it in those terms you can just as easily say that most guys leaving soon got an extra 5 years in the left seat. Most of the 1998-2001 hires got 5 more years in the right seat - all are in the same boat with regard to getting hosed over in BK.
I repeat however that I dont believe this is a junior vs senior issue. I agree there has to be a balance. I think we as Pilots will have to compromise with the company. I am 100% against concessions but realize we will have to compromise. This can present a problem because one mans compromise is another mans concession.
This is the job of the NC and the MEC to strike a reasonable balance and get the overall compensation increases that will be strongly ratified. Tweaking the failed TA will not cut it.
Scoop
05-21-2016 | 12:26 PM
#96
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,248
Likes: 706
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
Please go on. THEY can hold out for 15-20 years to achieve "restoration" that they never lost in the first place. Meanwhile, those that were actually harmed will be thrown under the proverbial bus because they do not have the time to wait that long. You speak as if this is a good thing.
There has to be a balance.
There has to be a balance.
Last edited by notEnuf; 05-21-2016 at 12:43 PM.
05-21-2016 | 12:38 PM
#97
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,248
Likes: 706
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
Someone please explain to me the urgency. I want a good contract that restores the value of this career. I can't imagine a better environment for doing that.
If C2012 was so horrible to live under, why was it ratified? If you think it was a great deal then you are fine with your industry average auto rate adjustments and industry leading profit sharing. If you are unhappy with C2012 then perhaps we should learn from that and wait for an adequate improvement. Either way I see no reason for the pilots to rush. Let management tear the culture apart with their divisive actions, that's their choice. You have no say in how they run the business. From my perspective the current contract will serve us well enough until restoration. With added bonus of knowing its pitfalls and language.
No concessions is easy to do. All you have to do is nothing. With the upcoming movement in seniority there will plenty of green slips, assignments, and upgrades which will make it that much more "livable." To the senior wide body captains and those with only a short (by their own definition because it's very personal and subjective) time remaining I pledge my support of true retroactivity.
If C2012 was so horrible to live under, why was it ratified? If you think it was a great deal then you are fine with your industry average auto rate adjustments and industry leading profit sharing. If you are unhappy with C2012 then perhaps we should learn from that and wait for an adequate improvement. Either way I see no reason for the pilots to rush. Let management tear the culture apart with their divisive actions, that's their choice. You have no say in how they run the business. From my perspective the current contract will serve us well enough until restoration. With added bonus of knowing its pitfalls and language.
No concessions is easy to do. All you have to do is nothing. With the upcoming movement in seniority there will plenty of green slips, assignments, and upgrades which will make it that much more "livable." To the senior wide body captains and those with only a short (by their own definition because it's very personal and subjective) time remaining I pledge my support of true retroactivity.
Last edited by notEnuf; 05-21-2016 at 12:56 PM.
05-21-2016 | 01:21 PM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
I am assuming YOU are the one we are talking about being harmed. Those who have time to wait were harmed much more than you will be. How many years did you do on furlough? How many years were you at a regional before or after you got the great Delta job only to return to a much damaged career? I am not saying your loss is any more or less impactful or emotional for you but your position on the seniority list gives you very little perspective.
05-21-2016 | 01:26 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
I don't think you can make this a junior vs senior issue. 65% of the Pilot group said no with senior and junior alike both voting no.
If you do insist that we look at it in those terms you can just as easily say that most guys leaving soon got an extra 5 years in the left seat. Most of the 1998-2001 hires got 5 more years in the right seat - all are in the same boat with regard to getting hosed over in BK.
I repeat however that I dont believe this is a junior vs senior issue. I agree there has to be a balance. I think we as Pilots will have to compromise with the company. I am 100% against concessions but realize we will have to compromise. This can present a problem because one mans compromise is another mans concession.
This is the job of the NC and the MEC to strike a reasonable balance and get the overall compensation increases that will be strongly ratified. Tweaking the failed TA will not cut it.
Scoop
If you do insist that we look at it in those terms you can just as easily say that most guys leaving soon got an extra 5 years in the left seat. Most of the 1998-2001 hires got 5 more years in the right seat - all are in the same boat with regard to getting hosed over in BK.
I repeat however that I dont believe this is a junior vs senior issue. I agree there has to be a balance. I think we as Pilots will have to compromise with the company. I am 100% against concessions but realize we will have to compromise. This can present a problem because one mans compromise is another mans concession.
This is the job of the NC and the MEC to strike a reasonable balance and get the overall compensation increases that will be strongly ratified. Tweaking the failed TA will not cut it.
Scoop
Fire away
05-21-2016 | 01:28 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Someone please explain to me the urgency. I want a good contract that restores the value of this career. I can't imagine a better environment for doing that.
If C2012 was so horrible to live under, why was it ratified? If you think it was a great deal then you are fine with your industry average auto rate adjustments and industry leading profit sharing. If you are unhappy with C2012 then perhaps we should learn from that and wait for an adequate improvement. Either way I see no reason for the pilots to rush. Let management tear the culture apart with their divisive actions, that's their choice. You have no say in how they run the business. From my perspective the current contract will serve us well enough until restoration. With added bonus of knowing its pitfalls and language.
No concessions is easy to do. All you have to do is nothing. With the upcoming movement in seniority there will plenty of green slips, assignments, and upgrades which will make it that much more "livable." To the senior wide body captains and those with only a short (by their own definition because it's very personal and subjective) time remaining I pledge my support of true retroactivity.
If C2012 was so horrible to live under, why was it ratified? If you think it was a great deal then you are fine with your industry average auto rate adjustments and industry leading profit sharing. If you are unhappy with C2012 then perhaps we should learn from that and wait for an adequate improvement. Either way I see no reason for the pilots to rush. Let management tear the culture apart with their divisive actions, that's their choice. You have no say in how they run the business. From my perspective the current contract will serve us well enough until restoration. With added bonus of knowing its pitfalls and language.
No concessions is easy to do. All you have to do is nothing. With the upcoming movement in seniority there will plenty of green slips, assignments, and upgrades which will make it that much more "livable." To the senior wide body captains and those with only a short (by their own definition because it's very personal and subjective) time remaining I pledge my support of true retroactivity.
Just out of curiosity though, how long past the amendable date do you expect full retroactivity?
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