Somebody Gets It.
07-31-2016, 07:12 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by marcal
PD,
I'd be interested to know your definition of QOL? For example, what cat and seat are you in and what would your ideal schedule look like?
It's so difficult for anyone to talk about QOL givebacks when QOL is by far the most subjective thing we have.
Commuter vs non commuter
AM vs PM
Turns vs 5 days
Love my family vs hate them all and want to work
Etc etc etc
I'd be interested to know your definition of QOL? For example, what cat and seat are you in and what would your ideal schedule look like?
It's so difficult for anyone to talk about QOL givebacks when QOL is by far the most subjective thing we have.
Commuter vs non commuter
AM vs PM
Turns vs 5 days
Love my family vs hate them all and want to work
Etc etc etc
07-31-2016, 12:28 PM
#75
Straight QOL, homie
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
I think we can all agree that QOL is defined by work rule and other provisions that enrich our lives, provisions that we should not give away when the company is wildly profitable. . QOL items allow us to enjoy the most important commodity we have: time. In this case, time away from work. We must improve these provisions. Treading water is insufficient.
There are very few, if any, QOL improvements in the aips. None whatsoever in the sick leave TA. Just onerous changes that make our lives more difficult.
There are very few, if any, QOL improvements in the aips. None whatsoever in the sick leave TA. Just onerous changes that make our lives more difficult.
07-31-2016, 03:22 PM
#76
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
I think we can all agree that QOL is defined by work rule and other provisions that enrich our lives, provisions that we should not give away when the company is wildly profitable. . QOL items allow us to enjoy the most important commodity we have: time. In this case, time away from work. We must improve these provisions. Treading water is insufficient.
There are very few, if any, QOL improvements in the aips. None whatsoever in the sick leave TA. Just onerous changes that make our lives more difficult.
There are very few, if any, QOL improvements in the aips. None whatsoever in the sick leave TA. Just onerous changes that make our lives more difficult.
All of what you're describing has not been agreed upon yet (min day, vacation, medical, hourly rates and DC). It has been recognized that there is room for some adjustments in the AIPs.
07-31-2016, 03:57 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: CA
Posts: 357
Thought this was a well written letter to the reps from another board....
Gentlemen—
When you get to a fork in the road, you take it. I appreciate you sharing information with the pilot group concerning what you consider negotiating progress the past few weeks, however I fear we have not only taken the wrong path at the fork, worst yet, we are stepping on the accelerator.
The Hippocratic Oath has been translated numerous times over the centuries with one major concept: “Above all do no harm”. The Delta Pilots currently have a contract, rooted in bankruptcy, and mired in the false premise that Delta needs pilot concessions to “compete”. The spending spree of 2012-2016 following C2012 when Delta paid off the remaining NWA debt, bought 1.5 NWA airline equivalents, committed double that amount to share repurchases and dividends should leave no doubt that Delta produces money while Chapter 11 is from another universe, far, far away. The purchase of a refinery while concurrently making high roller bets on the oil futures market is more evidence management has run out of recreational uses for that cash and would rather blow it at the casino than put it to good use. Delta does not have an economic need to be bribed to negotiate a new pilot contract in 2016.
The pilots I speak to are not in a rush. The talk of a contract by the end of the summer of 2016 assumed it would be the RIGHT contract, not the RIGHT NOW contract. Delta has been sitting on our reengagement proposal since Dec 2015. Eight months of ignoring the pilots compared to eight weeks to concoct the previous failed TA. With the same haste Delta could have crafted four more failures in the same timeframe if they really were interested in getting a deal done. The reengagement proposal I might add that had the hands of the same people up to their elbows who brought us an insulting, concession-laden TA in 2015 based on proactive engagement and polling at least a year old. After TA rejection they used every clause in the by-laws to cling to power just to leave us a parting shot while denying their constituents a chance to change representatives. Since that proposal we are up to our ears in White Swans. Record profits with new agreements at virtually every other airline combined with record low fuel prices have us staring up at an 18-foot bar with the perspective of a tall 6th grader. The 8-month old proposal as written has been eclipsed numerous times by new industry leading contracts. While our CEO was sleeping, the price of pilots went up. Way up. It will go even higher when SWA sets a new standard for 737 pilots. If God forbid another Black Swan event ever happened there is no doubt the company would take advantage of it by yanking their current position, claiming we were the party who waited too long. The company dragging their feet while expecting us to yet again pay for any “improvements” has long missed the opportunity window of a cheap TA. I strongly urge you all to regroup, recharge, then show the Millionaire’s Club at Delta management what an Industry Leading Contract actually looks like. Treat them to the Harry Alger cafeteria plan. They can choose C2K from 2004 to include the DB retirement or UPS 2016 with their 401K, PS, A Plan and B Fund. Exceeding the ridiculously low mark of the failed 2015 TA is not an improvement. Reducing the SL lookback for example from 36 to 12 months is still a step backwards from what we already have.
The AIPs that were recently released have no Principal. Line Pilots will not Agree to them regardless of how wonderful the negotiators think they are. They are bankruptcy era concepts as extinct as the Platypus and frankly insulting. A rolling 100-hour sick leave trigger is a HUGE concession from a 100-hour per year unverified total. Why are we even going down this path? As the current C44 Chairman said at the time in 2012, the primary reason Delta negotiated new SL language in 2012 was so they could vacate a grievance on a non-negotiated wellness program DELTA LOST! Now they want us to surrender even more of our negotiated benefit. Did someone actually propose a sick leave contest? I thought it was a joke until I saw it written down. Please ask Delta management to lead by example. Have Ed, the BOD, and all the upper executives compete with all the other airlines to work more for less money than their contemporaries at the other airlines in their competitive set. The current situation is the exact opposite. It is amazing Delta has done as well as it has over-paying 50% or more for suits with desks than the competition.
Having already touched the SL Third Rail, I have read our negotiators also agreed in principle to a Fitness Board to determine pay status after a duty extension refusal. I don’t care what nonsensical need the company claims to have, this is INDUSTRY TRAILING! The FAA has stated extensions should be rare and totally at the pilot’s discretion. SWA already has pay protection with no questions asked. I am being asked to make the tough call then write a report only to be disciplined weeks later by not being paid. The pay threat with SL, Fatigue and now failure to extend are all following a pattern of the company coercing a pilot to fly when they possibly shouldn’t, using pay as the ultimate hammer.
Virtual Bases? Really? This is a sick joke. No matter how you try to slice it this is something no sane pilot group would agree to. No one else has it and we shouldn’t be the crash test dummies for the majors. The company can’t staff bases as it is and there are people who think they will suddenly become Nostradamus when it comes to anticipating the schedule? You do realize that all VB flying comes out of some other base, so EVERYONE’S QOL goes down as Delta shifts flying willy-nilly around the system? Everyone loses trip and bid quality to benefit a few “volunteers”. Every other experiment has ended poorly at this airline. Quit playing with matches when you are standing in a pool of gasoline.
Our targeted proposal, like the failed TA, failed to address the retirement shortfall. With almost 9000 pilots over 50, I am sure a demographer used a spreadsheet to determine the problem children will simply get old and go away. Why are Delta pilots the only employees including executives that don’t have a pension? It is likely because we never created a new term and made it a gateway issue. When I see what other airlines are paying their pilots including a full retirement I know it will take a long time to really get industry leading pay, QOL and work rules. Please don’t negotiate dirty bandages like VEBA which possibly might save Delta tax money and grant them control of money that is already owned by the individual pilot. Having my pocket picked once in a career is more than enough.
So to recap, we haven’t ensured a second rejected TA in so many years yet, but we are racing toward that destination. Please have the negotiators step back from the table and quit giving things away. The failed TA is not a benchmark to improve on. It doesn’t exist. It is only a gleam in Management’s eyes. It should never have seen the light of day in the first place. I know that booger got stuck on you before you took office and it is a hard one to flick off but please get rid of it. UPS, UAL and FedEx have made it pretty apparent you don’t have to give everything away to get pay rates up to industry standard. We arguably have an industry trailing contract. The Delta pilots are willing to do it once, do it right as a slimy CEO once said. Management had a chance to do the right thing but passed several times on that opportunity. The AIPs that have surfaced will cause a rejection regardless of how cleverly they are worded, packaged or marketed. Take your time and get it right. We have your back and are willing to wait. If I find that this is all a Jedi mind trick to snooker the company into a clean pay raise with industry leading benefits, then I salute you and apologize in advance.
Gentlemen—
When you get to a fork in the road, you take it. I appreciate you sharing information with the pilot group concerning what you consider negotiating progress the past few weeks, however I fear we have not only taken the wrong path at the fork, worst yet, we are stepping on the accelerator.
The Hippocratic Oath has been translated numerous times over the centuries with one major concept: “Above all do no harm”. The Delta Pilots currently have a contract, rooted in bankruptcy, and mired in the false premise that Delta needs pilot concessions to “compete”. The spending spree of 2012-2016 following C2012 when Delta paid off the remaining NWA debt, bought 1.5 NWA airline equivalents, committed double that amount to share repurchases and dividends should leave no doubt that Delta produces money while Chapter 11 is from another universe, far, far away. The purchase of a refinery while concurrently making high roller bets on the oil futures market is more evidence management has run out of recreational uses for that cash and would rather blow it at the casino than put it to good use. Delta does not have an economic need to be bribed to negotiate a new pilot contract in 2016.
The pilots I speak to are not in a rush. The talk of a contract by the end of the summer of 2016 assumed it would be the RIGHT contract, not the RIGHT NOW contract. Delta has been sitting on our reengagement proposal since Dec 2015. Eight months of ignoring the pilots compared to eight weeks to concoct the previous failed TA. With the same haste Delta could have crafted four more failures in the same timeframe if they really were interested in getting a deal done. The reengagement proposal I might add that had the hands of the same people up to their elbows who brought us an insulting, concession-laden TA in 2015 based on proactive engagement and polling at least a year old. After TA rejection they used every clause in the by-laws to cling to power just to leave us a parting shot while denying their constituents a chance to change representatives. Since that proposal we are up to our ears in White Swans. Record profits with new agreements at virtually every other airline combined with record low fuel prices have us staring up at an 18-foot bar with the perspective of a tall 6th grader. The 8-month old proposal as written has been eclipsed numerous times by new industry leading contracts. While our CEO was sleeping, the price of pilots went up. Way up. It will go even higher when SWA sets a new standard for 737 pilots. If God forbid another Black Swan event ever happened there is no doubt the company would take advantage of it by yanking their current position, claiming we were the party who waited too long. The company dragging their feet while expecting us to yet again pay for any “improvements” has long missed the opportunity window of a cheap TA. I strongly urge you all to regroup, recharge, then show the Millionaire’s Club at Delta management what an Industry Leading Contract actually looks like. Treat them to the Harry Alger cafeteria plan. They can choose C2K from 2004 to include the DB retirement or UPS 2016 with their 401K, PS, A Plan and B Fund. Exceeding the ridiculously low mark of the failed 2015 TA is not an improvement. Reducing the SL lookback for example from 36 to 12 months is still a step backwards from what we already have.
The AIPs that were recently released have no Principal. Line Pilots will not Agree to them regardless of how wonderful the negotiators think they are. They are bankruptcy era concepts as extinct as the Platypus and frankly insulting. A rolling 100-hour sick leave trigger is a HUGE concession from a 100-hour per year unverified total. Why are we even going down this path? As the current C44 Chairman said at the time in 2012, the primary reason Delta negotiated new SL language in 2012 was so they could vacate a grievance on a non-negotiated wellness program DELTA LOST! Now they want us to surrender even more of our negotiated benefit. Did someone actually propose a sick leave contest? I thought it was a joke until I saw it written down. Please ask Delta management to lead by example. Have Ed, the BOD, and all the upper executives compete with all the other airlines to work more for less money than their contemporaries at the other airlines in their competitive set. The current situation is the exact opposite. It is amazing Delta has done as well as it has over-paying 50% or more for suits with desks than the competition.
Having already touched the SL Third Rail, I have read our negotiators also agreed in principle to a Fitness Board to determine pay status after a duty extension refusal. I don’t care what nonsensical need the company claims to have, this is INDUSTRY TRAILING! The FAA has stated extensions should be rare and totally at the pilot’s discretion. SWA already has pay protection with no questions asked. I am being asked to make the tough call then write a report only to be disciplined weeks later by not being paid. The pay threat with SL, Fatigue and now failure to extend are all following a pattern of the company coercing a pilot to fly when they possibly shouldn’t, using pay as the ultimate hammer.
Virtual Bases? Really? This is a sick joke. No matter how you try to slice it this is something no sane pilot group would agree to. No one else has it and we shouldn’t be the crash test dummies for the majors. The company can’t staff bases as it is and there are people who think they will suddenly become Nostradamus when it comes to anticipating the schedule? You do realize that all VB flying comes out of some other base, so EVERYONE’S QOL goes down as Delta shifts flying willy-nilly around the system? Everyone loses trip and bid quality to benefit a few “volunteers”. Every other experiment has ended poorly at this airline. Quit playing with matches when you are standing in a pool of gasoline.
Our targeted proposal, like the failed TA, failed to address the retirement shortfall. With almost 9000 pilots over 50, I am sure a demographer used a spreadsheet to determine the problem children will simply get old and go away. Why are Delta pilots the only employees including executives that don’t have a pension? It is likely because we never created a new term and made it a gateway issue. When I see what other airlines are paying their pilots including a full retirement I know it will take a long time to really get industry leading pay, QOL and work rules. Please don’t negotiate dirty bandages like VEBA which possibly might save Delta tax money and grant them control of money that is already owned by the individual pilot. Having my pocket picked once in a career is more than enough.
So to recap, we haven’t ensured a second rejected TA in so many years yet, but we are racing toward that destination. Please have the negotiators step back from the table and quit giving things away. The failed TA is not a benchmark to improve on. It doesn’t exist. It is only a gleam in Management’s eyes. It should never have seen the light of day in the first place. I know that booger got stuck on you before you took office and it is a hard one to flick off but please get rid of it. UPS, UAL and FedEx have made it pretty apparent you don’t have to give everything away to get pay rates up to industry standard. We arguably have an industry trailing contract. The Delta pilots are willing to do it once, do it right as a slimy CEO once said. Management had a chance to do the right thing but passed several times on that opportunity. The AIPs that have surfaced will cause a rejection regardless of how cleverly they are worded, packaged or marketed. Take your time and get it right. We have your back and are willing to wait. If I find that this is all a Jedi mind trick to snooker the company into a clean pay raise with industry leading benefits, then I salute you and apologize in advance.
07-31-2016, 06:28 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,034
Originally Posted by JamesBond
And we get an additional 4 years behind. Brilliant!
The natives will be restless with 4 years of pay stagnation. Maybe just enough to form a union.
If the FAs start another drive would they get a raise to appease them???
07-31-2016, 07:18 PM
#80
Where could U B tomorrow?
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by notEnuf
...unless the non-cons get raises...
The natives will be restless with 4 years of pay stagnation. Maybe just enough to form a union.
If the FAs start another drive would they get a raise to appease them???
The natives will be restless with 4 years of pay stagnation. Maybe just enough to form a union.
If the FAs start another drive would they get a raise to appease them???
This is such nonsense.
If the pilots have not reached and ratified an agreement in 2016, the non-cons will be awarded a 3% bonus in 2017 while negotiations continue and the pilots stagnate due to 3.B.5.
If the pilots are still without an agreement in January 2018, bonuses could be awarded again, yielding nothing for the pilots. The possibility exists that the company could actually make it a 3% raise that would trigger an equivalent raise for the pilots at that time, but would most certainly be discounted in any subsequent ratified agreement.
Mitigating a pay gap that fuels a representation drive for the FAs is one of the easiest challenges for the company to overcome.
