Monthly Polling and Retirement
09-20-2016 | 03:43 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 9
From: 3fidy
I think this is one of the best, and most illustrative posts Jerry has ever made. It's breath-taking in its' candor and honesty.
Translation: we're only trying to get the tip in, but the pilots keep squirming away.
If you're not about to retire REAL SOON, you need to really, really pay attention. I believe a lot of this battle has nothing to do with a TA that benefits all, but a shift of wealth from everyone, to those about to retire.
Imagine if you will a few debt-ridden elderly pilots in power, almost complete power, but still slightly encumbered by the process, and serving on a MEC where some of the people are trying to do the will of the group.
For these men, the will of the group is an obstacle, not a goal.
They know that anything we get will be of a defined total value. They know very well that the vast majority wants a DC plan, and DC increases, as Jerry admitted. This is a problem. Getting their fair share is not sufficient: they need more. The only vehicle to getting away with a bunch now, is to try to convince everyone they'll get a lot later, and placate them long enough to be under the first group protected by the PBGC.
This entire group knows full well that a DB plan is an absurdity. It isn't just a weak promise, but hostage we can't afford to lose. It's a story that's already ended very badly, an epic nightmare that these men want to re-package as a fairy tale.
A DB plan would be a monstrously expensive adventure. As one of the 12 explained to me, it would cost billions (like 5). Very sensibly, he said that if he could get billions, he would want to distribute it as DC, then pay.
From what I hear, Jerry is right that some in the MEC had to artificially force more DB propaganda into the polling, because it contradicts the survey. No matter how hard they try, the Delta pilots see right through the manipulations, and ask for a retirement plan in their own name. This infuriates Jerry, and those he works with, but here it is: the Delta pilots keep asking for what makes the most sense for them: a retirement in their own name.
Jerry let out a bit too much than he should have, I think, but he's doing everyone a service. We're getting a glimpse of the future, and the future is actually the past: this POS 96 in the making.
...
To be VERY clear, I'm not painting the older pilot demographics in a particular way. I think most guys are sincere and honorable in their intentions. I'm talking about what I think is a huge factor behind the current MEC dysfunction. Between the guys just trying to kill the union, the guy trying to kill a deal over RJ's at any cost, and the "targeted retirement" guys trying to kill a deal until we're desperate enough for a quick cram-down of POS 96, it's difficult to get the Delta pilots' interests represented at the table.
Translation: we're only trying to get the tip in, but the pilots keep squirming away.
If you're not about to retire REAL SOON, you need to really, really pay attention. I believe a lot of this battle has nothing to do with a TA that benefits all, but a shift of wealth from everyone, to those about to retire.
Imagine if you will a few debt-ridden elderly pilots in power, almost complete power, but still slightly encumbered by the process, and serving on a MEC where some of the people are trying to do the will of the group.
For these men, the will of the group is an obstacle, not a goal.
They know that anything we get will be of a defined total value. They know very well that the vast majority wants a DC plan, and DC increases, as Jerry admitted. This is a problem. Getting their fair share is not sufficient: they need more. The only vehicle to getting away with a bunch now, is to try to convince everyone they'll get a lot later, and placate them long enough to be under the first group protected by the PBGC.
This entire group knows full well that a DB plan is an absurdity. It isn't just a weak promise, but hostage we can't afford to lose. It's a story that's already ended very badly, an epic nightmare that these men want to re-package as a fairy tale.
A DB plan would be a monstrously expensive adventure. As one of the 12 explained to me, it would cost billions (like 5). Very sensibly, he said that if he could get billions, he would want to distribute it as DC, then pay.
From what I hear, Jerry is right that some in the MEC had to artificially force more DB propaganda into the polling, because it contradicts the survey. No matter how hard they try, the Delta pilots see right through the manipulations, and ask for a retirement plan in their own name. This infuriates Jerry, and those he works with, but here it is: the Delta pilots keep asking for what makes the most sense for them: a retirement in their own name.
Jerry let out a bit too much than he should have, I think, but he's doing everyone a service. We're getting a glimpse of the future, and the future is actually the past: this POS 96 in the making.
...
To be VERY clear, I'm not painting the older pilot demographics in a particular way. I think most guys are sincere and honorable in their intentions. I'm talking about what I think is a huge factor behind the current MEC dysfunction. Between the guys just trying to kill the union, the guy trying to kill a deal over RJ's at any cost, and the "targeted retirement" guys trying to kill a deal until we're desperate enough for a quick cram-down of POS 96, it's difficult to get the Delta pilots' interests represented at the table.
Last edited by Hawaii50; 09-20-2016 at 03:58 PM.
09-20-2016 | 06:58 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
Likes: 168
From: window seat
If you think 18% 2-3 years from now with no retro is MEMRATable then LOL fine send it to us for a vote. One step closer to a legal strike. If they want to fall on their swords and eviscerate billions and billions of company/shareholder wealth in a few months to save a tiny fraction of that on retro, than that's how it has to be. Hopefully they're not that sadistic.
09-20-2016 | 07:12 PM
#23
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,252
Likes: 95
From: DAL 330
The No voters did all DAL Pilots a favor by rejecting the huge overreach of Delta that was TA-15 fully supported by DALPA.
That set us up for a much better TA which May be within reach.
I find it ironic that the "No" side now appears to be overreaching, which may in fact prove the initial TA supporters correct - That if we vote down a TA we will be in limbo for years.
We are not that far apart and have have a few tough issues to work out. As someone else posted a fair deal is more than just pay ending up north of splitting the difference.
Its pretty simple - If the deal is once again sub-standard it will not pass. If the deal is good enough it will pass.
I have said it before and I will say it again - I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000+ Pilots more than any 1 single Pilot, more than the MEC (TA-1 validated this) and even more than myself.
I think we are within reach of a deal that can pass memory rat.
Scoop
09-20-2016 | 07:27 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
Likes: 168
From: window seat
I do too. In the distance between, however, is a whole host of poison pills that the company is turning into "religious issues". Those little nuggets would sink this TA even if we got our current positions on pay/vaca/etc. Splitting the difference on those and then keeping the poison pills will lead to a flagrant rejection. IMO if they dropped ALL of the poison pills and split the difference in pay and kept vaca at 3:45 pay AND CREDIT it would probably MEMRAT.
But they won't do that. So we will have to instead work towards a legal strike. That's their call.
But they won't do that. So we will have to instead work towards a legal strike. That's their call.
09-20-2016 | 08:53 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
I don't even work there and have no idea what some of these terms even mean that you guys speak of. But I do know that you guys took one for the team a while back and now the team is ****ing all over you laughing.
The best part is I don't even like unions. But hey this is getting ridiculous and it's your own reps fault for negotiation with themselves.
It's like this guys. Your on a deserted island and you have one case of water. Now you know in a week there is a boat coming to get you. Some new guy parachutes in with a million bucks on him thinking he may never get rescued. Now come about day two how much of that million do you think he'll give you for 12 of your bottles of water?
Answer
I'll get the the whole mil.
But some of you Delta guys would settle for a cool five spot after you tell him the boat will be by in 5 more days
You guys have a vote for a new crew coming up. Do yourselves a favor and after they are elected pay a couple grand and send them to negotiating 101 at the local schoolhouse. I am being serious.
The best part is I don't even like unions. But hey this is getting ridiculous and it's your own reps fault for negotiation with themselves.
It's like this guys. Your on a deserted island and you have one case of water. Now you know in a week there is a boat coming to get you. Some new guy parachutes in with a million bucks on him thinking he may never get rescued. Now come about day two how much of that million do you think he'll give you for 12 of your bottles of water?
Answer
I'll get the the whole mil.
But some of you Delta guys would settle for a cool five spot after you tell him the boat will be by in 5 more days
You guys have a vote for a new crew coming up. Do yourselves a favor and after they are elected pay a couple grand and send them to negotiating 101 at the local schoolhouse. I am being serious.
09-21-2016 | 04:05 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Likes: 0
The No voters did all DAL Pilots a favor by rejecting the huge overreach of Delta that was TA-15 fully supported by DALPA.
That set us up for a much better TA which May be within reach.
I find it ironic that the "No" side now appears to be overreaching, which may in fact prove the initial TA supporters correct - That if we vote down a TA we will be in limbo for years.
We are not that far apart and have have a few tough issues to work out. As someone else posted a fair deal is more than just pay ending up north of splitting the difference.
Its pretty simple - If the deal is once again sub-standard it will not pass. If the deal is good enough it will pass.
I have said it before and I will say it again - I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000+ Pilots more than any 1 single Pilot, more than the MEC (TA-1 validated this) and even more than myself.
I think we are within reach of a deal that can pass memory rat.
That set us up for a much better TA which May be within reach.
I find it ironic that the "No" side now appears to be overreaching, which may in fact prove the initial TA supporters correct - That if we vote down a TA we will be in limbo for years.
We are not that far apart and have have a few tough issues to work out. As someone else posted a fair deal is more than just pay ending up north of splitting the difference.
Its pretty simple - If the deal is once again sub-standard it will not pass. If the deal is good enough it will pass.
I have said it before and I will say it again - I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000+ Pilots more than any 1 single Pilot, more than the MEC (TA-1 validated this) and even more than myself.
I think we are within reach of a deal that can pass memory rat.
I remember once upon a time, when the forum was just a low-grade sort of crazy, where I could write a consensus post, and not get ad-hominemed to death. Props to you, that you still can.
09-21-2016 | 04:40 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,361
Likes: 58
I do too. In the distance between, however, is a whole host of poison pills that the company is turning into "religious issues". Those little nuggets would sink this TA even if we got our current positions on pay/vaca/etc. Splitting the difference on those and then keeping the poison pills will lead to a flagrant rejection. IMO if they dropped ALL of the poison pills and split the difference in pay and kept vaca at 3:45 pay AND CREDIT it would probably MEMRAT.
But they won't do that. So we will have to instead work towards a legal strike. That's their call.
But they won't do that. So we will have to instead work towards a legal strike. That's their call.
1) The TA might actually pass MEMRAT and we are stuck with it; or
2) The TA gets voted down and we start another circus show like the last time with recalls and shuffling of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
So, if neither of the above occur, it seems like we continue proceeding down the "no concession" track which certainly has a cost. The cost for "no concessions" is quickly becoming the loss of full retro and the perpetual continuation of C2012. Those who think we can get both are quickly losing touch with reality.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out...and when. I have a feeling we might see a TA by 2018 and it will look pretty similar to where we are now. Hope I'm wrong but...
09-21-2016 | 05:02 AM
#28
Snake
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Every vote since July 11, 2015 has gone entirely your way. You got the rejection, the Reps, the Master Chairman, and the Negotiating Committee you wanted.
The "Focus Plus" re-opener in December was the most idiotic move ever by any MEC, but it was what you wanted. Sure, put a hard number out there for compensation, only to get tripped up seven months later by those new rates at UPS. Brilliant.
And now, after another round of negotiations - this time with the help of the NMB, we have exactly what we had last year on the table. The best pay rates in the passenger business, alongside some other changes that will require some rational analysis from anyone who votes.
Both times, the market and the BATNA number of management determined the result. Shall we try a third time? Will this final purge and auto-da-fe satisfy you?
Describing Uvena as a Moakie is fair game - he was the ATL F/O rep during Moak's turn at the helm. For fun, can you call him names in person, and let me film it? Please?
Heiko? Are you kidding me? You know he posts on this board, right? Hay? The former Council 1 rep that also ran their Merger Committee? That's just nuts.
Anderson? Who knows? He speaks well enough, but this is his first time serving in any capacity; I'm still not sure how he got elected.
09-21-2016 | 05:04 AM
#29
Snake
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
The No voters did all DAL Pilots a favor by rejecting the huge overreach of Delta that was TA-15 fully supported by DALPA.
That set us up for a much better TA which May be within reach.
I find it ironic that the "No" side now appears to be overreaching, which may in fact prove the initial TA supporters correct - That if we vote down a TA we will be in limbo for years.
We are not that far apart and have have a few tough issues to work out. As someone else posted a fair deal is more than just pay ending up north of splitting the difference.
Its pretty simple - If the deal is once again sub-standard it will not pass. If the deal is good enough it will pass.
I have said it before and I will say it again - I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000+ Pilots more than any 1 single Pilot, more than the MEC (TA-1 validated this) and even more than myself.
I think we are within reach of a deal that can pass memory rat.
Scoop
That set us up for a much better TA which May be within reach.
I find it ironic that the "No" side now appears to be overreaching, which may in fact prove the initial TA supporters correct - That if we vote down a TA we will be in limbo for years.
We are not that far apart and have have a few tough issues to work out. As someone else posted a fair deal is more than just pay ending up north of splitting the difference.
Its pretty simple - If the deal is once again sub-standard it will not pass. If the deal is good enough it will pass.
I have said it before and I will say it again - I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000+ Pilots more than any 1 single Pilot, more than the MEC (TA-1 validated this) and even more than myself.
I think we are within reach of a deal that can pass memory rat.
Scoop
Last edited by rube; 09-21-2016 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Pushed the "post" button too early
09-21-2016 | 07:29 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 1
The NC committee can jump up and down with the NMB and the company in the room and tell them the current offer, as a whole, will not pass but nothing will convince them and substantiate the claims like another 65/35 rejection. Maybe the NC should just bring out a TA, the MEC passes it on for MEMRAT without endorsement and then let us vote on it. Of course:
1) The TA might actually pass MEMRAT and we are stuck with it; or
2) The TA gets voted down and we start another circus show like the last time with recalls and shuffling of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
So, if neither of the above occur, it seems like we continue proceeding down the "no concession" track which certainly has a cost. The cost for "no concessions" is quickly becoming the loss of full retro and the perpetual continuation of C2012. Those who think we can get both are quickly losing touch with reality.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out...and when. I have a feeling we might see a TA by 2018 and it will look pretty similar to where we are now. Hope I'm wrong but...
1) The TA might actually pass MEMRAT and we are stuck with it; or
2) The TA gets voted down and we start another circus show like the last time with recalls and shuffling of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
So, if neither of the above occur, it seems like we continue proceeding down the "no concession" track which certainly has a cost. The cost for "no concessions" is quickly becoming the loss of full retro and the perpetual continuation of C2012. Those who think we can get both are quickly losing touch with reality.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out...and when. I have a feeling we might see a TA by 2018 and it will look pretty similar to where we are now. Hope I'm wrong but...
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