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Quote:

Originally Posted by BtoA (Post 2225846)

No. In the end, we will have left if in place and the company will use it as a huge weapon to reduce jobs.

Every post you make is FUD with nothing to back it up. Why don't you post some examples of how you think the company is going to create this massive job loss via VB's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2226885)

Considering this forum is one OMG moment after another and 99% never happen I would say the forum is FUD after FUD from the usual suspects.
If what this forum posted about contract 2012 had turned out to be even remotely true you would not even have a job here. Just a couple of other examples include 20 pages of the evils of augmented domestic flights and the disaster that would be and 20 more pages on all the two man flights FAR117 would be causing. How did those turn out.
The simple fact is the domestic system is fairly low credit. A VB only makes sense if you can reduce that credit further and not increase your greenslips at the hubs when irregular ops hit.
In the end we can simply do nothing and the entire program dies. If we want to extend it we can via LOA. That LOA can take any form we want including extending the right to pull it down at any time. The company will have zero leverage so they will have to accept what we want.
As I originally posted the entire VB concept is so watered down from what the company really wanted as to now have very limited use.

Seriously Sailing?

Have you seen the APC vote?

This is by far the most balanced forum. Yes it was heavily against the last TA, but so we're the Pilots.

Scoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2226885)

Considering this forum is one OMG moment after another and 99% never happen I would say the forum is FUD after FUD from the usual suspects.

Those who yell loud and often can be misperceived as the majority. But I would say the overall forum is not FUD. Like Scoop said, look at the vote thread, 71/29 pass, which I have a feeling is what the actual vote will look like. I was a definite no on the TA1 and most likely a yes to TA2, I have always appreciated posts that counter baseless rhetoric.

If you want FUD, just go to chitchat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 2226913)

Seriously Sailing?

Have you seen the APC vote?

This is by far the most balanced forum. Yes it was heavily against the last TA, but so we're the Pilots.

Scoop

I tend to agree with both of you. This place has all the inevitable "the sky is falling, all change is bad, and the good ol' days were always better than today" posts that you also find elsewhere.

However, here there is also some level headed discourse, with some respect and even humor thrown in that you don't see elsewhere, and I appreciate it. I don't go to the "Sh!t Chat" forum due to its toxic atmosphere. I no longer read the once-decent FB page for the same reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 2225366)

Seriously - you had better think of a different argument. Do you really think "stagnation" is a valid argument now? And wait until the 350 AE comes out.

There are some pretty valid arguments against this deal but stagnation is certainly not one of them.

Scoop

This deal *may* slow things a hair width, but it won't be anything like the last 15 years. No one can deny that. The constipation is now at the top end of the list but not for a whole lot longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herkflyr (Post 2226933)

What I find interesting is that here on an anonymous forum the discussion tends to be more issue oriented and professional, while at chitchat (which is not anonymous) it's more about personalities, name calling, and not professional at all, but much more of an embarrassment. You'd think it would be quite the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtoA (Post 2225846)

No. In the end, we will have left if in place and the company will use it as a huge weapon to reduce jobs.

Explain how you think this, and how about a few examples of numbers with just a modicum of fact to back them up. Bullet points will do.

Or is it just more spaghetti?

Unlike you, I have an open mind but not when some know it all throws out some meaningless rhetoric.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcal (Post 2226936)

This deal *may* slow things a hair width, but it won't be anything like the last 15 years. No one can deny that. The constipation is now at the top end of the list but not for a whole lot longer.

All these things that are being called 'job killers' are not even going to move the needle. They won't even be noticed.

It's a farce perpetrated by the usual anti dALPA crowd with an agenda.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBond (Post 2226970)

All these things that are being called 'job killers' are not even going to move the needle. They won't even be noticed.

It's a farce perpetrated by the usual anti dALPA crowd with an agenda.

Agreed!!!!(had to reach 10 characters)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2226885)

This is something that only exists to reduce pilot jobs. There is really no other reason for it besides maybe saving some hotels, but it would mostly occur in relatively cheap hotel markets anyway.

We absolutely have to go through all language with a fine tooth comb and assume that if they can do something worst case with it they will.

I think its obvious that whatever they do WRT VB's will be somewhat palatable at first. They want this option BADLY, even if they don't have a near term intention to go nuclear with it. So they know they have to limp through the first year on our terms to get it codified permanently. While technically this gives us leverage, it will be wasted if we rubber stamp something semi-positive that then becomes a significant jobs costing negative.

I see no net positive with VB's in that regard. If we want to be pro commuter there are many other ways to do it. This isn't it. This will cost jobs, dilute seniority and trip mix, and lastly cost jobs. We should already have the resolutions to pull this ASAP drafted and ready.