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- - Kill VB (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/98085-kill-vbulletin.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herkflyr (Post 2235558)

Mike, I respect your sincerity but you are just making up a scenario. It might be plausible or it might not ever happen or anything remotely close.

I don't commute but used to. The VBs are a huge unknown but I'm not convinced they are toxic. I am suspicious of them but our contractual language gives us an easy out if we don't like them. We should allow them to proceed and see what unfolds.

The company might conclude that they are a waste of time and effort. We might feel the same. Either side can pull them down.

Or just maybe, both sides will find them beneficial. It might even be (or not) several years of very successful VBs later we might even ask "what was all the angst about?"

Yes, they are a "huge unknown", and that is what makes them toxic. Nothing in the contract should be a "huge unknown".

..and yes, they do abrogate seniority. For the very reason that you must be qualified on the equipment that goes to a VB, it is an abrogation of seniority.

Pull them down immediately.

VB is absolutely toxic. It's lost jobs. The union posted something showing each adjustment to the contract and how many jobs were added/lost as a result of each adjustment. Something like

Vacation pay increased +6
Reserve SC credit +4
Virtual basing/TDY -55

You guys didn't see that?!?!

I can't find it otherwise I would copy and paste it. Someone who can find it please post this for everyone to see.

LOST JOBS IS TOXIC. ITS ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO BE ELIMINATED.

While were at it, let's get rid of out of base yellow slips.

Green slip killer...........

If it ends up being a bad deal, can ALPA put out a memo that just says, "nobody bid VB or TDY"? Problem solved? Or does that break some sort of RLA Hurt Feelings law?

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfnski (Post 2235586)

If it ends up being a bad deal, can ALPA put out a memo that just says, "nobody bid VB or TDY"? Problem solved? Or does that break some sort of RLA Hurt Feelings law?

Don't need too. They just pull out of the test program. Boom, it's over.

Denny

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfnski (Post 2235586)

If it ends up being a bad deal, can ALPA put out a memo that just says, "nobody bid VB or TDY"? Problem solved? Or does that break some sort of RLA Hurt Feelings law?

After 1 year they get together to re-evaluate the program. At that point either side can put the kibosh on it so your question wouldn't ever be necessary. We just have to wait the one year from DOS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by brakechatter (Post 2235572)

Yes, they are a huge unknown. That's why it's a test program that can be eliminated by either party. Guys are always asking for specific language when talking about unknowns.......well here there is specific language that allows for the program to be killed if it doesn't work out.

Come on, I think that's a stretch. A virtual base sounds like it will be a month to month bid, it may be there one month and gone the next. It's Basically a "category within a category." Your seniority in category is honored.

Denny

My question is who decides it isn't working? MEC or can the pilots vote? MEC better listen to the pilot if they are the ones in charge of deciding after the one year test period...

Test and voluntary. Pulled down with 45 day notice. Positive space, hotels and parking. Test it, pull it down or don't renew it. Lot's of protection. Not a big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeF16 (Post 2235554)

It's a good question and no offense taken.

Commuters lose no seniority in commuting. They have made a voluntary choice to use their seniority to enable their commuting lifestyle. VB will remove trips from the bid package which somebody who hasn't bid a VB (both commuters and those who live in domicile) would have had access to.

Actually I think commuters do lose a lot as far as seniority is concerned. Generally a commuter wants to remain more senior in category so s/he has more choices. Hence they delay upgrade. This leads to a better QOL for the commuter but definitely a loss of potential income. Yes, it will remove trips but this will be done on a proportional basis of how many bid the VB in a specific base. There will also need to be some reserve coverage in the VB. This will remove pilots from category and not cause a loss of trips.

Example: Senior commuter lives in Dallas and uses their seniority to bid double commutable NYC trips. VB established in Tampa. All those late sign-in early sign-out trips that used to do NYC-TPA are now gone to a new hire who just happens to live in Florida and bid the TPA VB. How is that fair? That has most definitely abrogated the seniority system.

I don't think that abrogates seniority. IMO, seniority abrogation is when, considering the both pilots are in the same situation i.e. category, the junior pilot gets a trip, day off, vacation etc. that the senior pilot wanted. You are talking about two now separate categories in TPA and NYC.

I gotta say, I'm enjoying playing "devils advocate" with this thread. Thanks Mike!:D

Denny