If that's the colgan consensus, I'd love it on the record.

Oh I'm sorry... You're right, "displaced" to the CA seat of the 200 while at the same time pushing the guys in my new hire class and the guys who were hired before me back to the right seat. Look at how many pre merger 06 hire like Ken out of their CA seat while 07 pre merger Colgan get to stay get to stay as CA. 7 month vacation or time off, whatever you want to call it. This guy had another job lined up, and get to be with with his family every night, while collecting pay from Pinnacle. Once he came to the Pinnacle side, he had a good schedule and was bragging about to me during our 4 day trip. So you think it's ok for some ex Pinnacle FO who's been here almost 7 years and will never see an upgrade have to hear about stuff like this at work? I'm not saying it's the guy fault this happened, but we don't need to hear about how great he had it on a 4 day trip, at the same time guys like Ken are getting downgraded. Don't believe me? take a look at the last displacement.

Pretty much.

I predict a massive exodus of FOs so severe the company will not survive. The dominoes have begun to fall. Very few downgraded CAs will stay. Attrition will out-pace aircraft returns and Delta will be forced to close the operation.

Why does anyone still work for this airline? hasn't the writing been on the wall since you announced you're going from an airline with 181 planes / 2200 pilots to an airline with 81 planes / 810 pilots? how obvious could this be? I thought all you FOs voted for that crap so you could get you're 6000 bonus before you quit? you really actually think that endeavor is a place where you can one day upgrade?? you know there are 400 lifers at these combined airlines right? I've always thought most pilots are smart but this stuff makes me wonder.

What really makes no sense is that 2nd year pay at many other regional is close to max out pay at Endeavor. I really don't even understand what there is to ponder about, if you are flying the 200 or 900 seems that any regional would scoop you up without hesitation. I can see how a 6 or 7 year FO would just say F@ck it though im going down with the ship.

I pray you are right!

anyone know what pinnacle's current attrition rate is? (number and seat)

The last I heard attrition is 18% for the year, when they had planned on 17%, so it's pretty much right on track according to the bean counters. In 2014, attrition is forcast to be 20% (some of the increase due to flows and SSP) and it looks like the first steps to ensuring that happens have started to take place. This 13-02 was supposed to balance out the Captains and First Officers and start forcing people over to the 900. However, I think it's just going to cause more FO's to leave, forcing further fleet reductions and downgrades to cover the right seat.

Hmmm where have we seen this show before???? Oh that's right I saw this show when I lived in CVG. What was that place called, OH I wish I could remember.

Epic. True, yet epic.

I think the most important thing to remember is this is just the FIRST realignment. Remember they revised this one because they didn't want to forecast training events like 11-09 fiasco.

Next realignment is after the new year in which you will see a TON more downgrades.

So...when is this thing supposed to be published?

I don't know if you're joking.

But, the initial came out yesterday and the final with class dates comes out on the 11th.

Since Saabs asked, it is completely ludicrous. The wording was quite clear that no XJ/9L could be awarded or displaced a left seat unless 9E maintains 541 and 95 seats respectively. They are below that. In fact, since the RJ quotas are only for the XJ/9E groups, if both are below their quotas, then it should mean a downgrade for every single 9L pilot. That's the intent of those quotas. The first 641 positions on the -200 are 9E and XJ. 541 and 100 ratio. Only if there are more than 641 positions available on the -200 then it goes in seniority order for all three groups including 9L. So yes it is beyond ridiculous that 9L still maintains as many left seats as they have while XJ and especially 9E guys dating all the way back to 2006 are now getting downgraded well below their own ratio.

As for 9E, I understand why the CAs are sticking around. The pay sucks but it's still livable. The SSP is slowly starting to come around and interviews should follow. But for 9E FOs, why are you still showing up to work? What's your excuse? I thought the general consensus was to take the 6 grand and run. Everyone will be capped at 4th yr FO pay of 38ish/hr. No FO will see a SSP Delta interview if they haven't already been a Captain. So if your pay is limited and there is no Delta SSP, then why stick around? The final result is inevitable - it has been ever since they announced an end state of 81 planes. FOs have left but I'm surprised more haven't done so. So it's not the money and certainly not the future (Delta) so why stick? Bases? Compass offers the same and they have quicker movement with guaranteed Captains leaving for the Delta flow. All you get is one year of pain and the 2nd year you'll be back to what you are making now as a capped FO. Or try Virgin/Spirit/JetBlue they have taken tons of FOs without TPIC and quite a few without internal recommendations. Heck, even apply to Delta/United/AA you have nothing to lose. I'm surprised 9E still gets flights out. There should be a mass exodus of FOs on a daily basis to the point that place comes to a standstill and implodes. There is no future for a 9E FO. Why delay the inevitable?

Sh1t, the union just put out a clarification email about the SSP, when our number is called for the SSP interview, we must be a current captain. The "once a captain" was a myth, unlike the no 4 year degree "Vault letter". Anyone with a seniority beyond 500 will more than likely not see an SSP interview, unless Delta miraculously does a mass interview for the 1200 current CA, or if Delta extends the SSP to FOs, which is dumb they didn't do in the first place. So the current SSP only benefits the top Captains that never met the quals to go to Delta on their own merit.. What a joke.

I don't know a single FO who isn't trying to leave. The only guys who I have heard say they are staying are super senior CA's and over about age 55.

It seems that wanting to leave and getting an offer to leave are not working as easily as planned for some.

This was yet another misinterpretation of what Delta required.

iv. be on the Pinnacle pilot seniority list at the time the opportunity to participate in the SSP is offered and thereafter remain on the seniority list until the date the pilot actually participates in the SSP,

v. either:

1) hold a Captain position at Pinnacle, or

2) have previously held a Captain position on the Pinnacle, Mesaba or Colgan pilot seniority list and be on an approved leave of absence from Pinnacle and not have accepted employment as a pilot while on leave at any of the following U.S. air carriers: American, United, US Airways, Southwest, JetBlue, Alaska, Hawaiian, FedEx, UPS, Virgin America, or Spirit.


The intent there makes it sound like only Captains who are basically on a leave. Once you take a leave, you "previously held your Captain seat" but not anymore since you are on leave. The "and" portion of the statement above makes it so. But apparently the union interpretation of that was to include anyone who was previously a Captain and that is not true.

But you are correct that from all indications, Delta will only take current Captains through the SSP.

Wait, the union assured us all FOs would get a chance to participate. Within 7 years (now 6) the whole list would get a chance to participate they claimed. And they also told us that the contract would not exert downward pressure on Regional wages. And management released a memo a few months ago about how FOs would rapidly be upgrading very soon. Why would the Union and management not tell us the truth?

are you sad now that y'all voted yes and started the lowering of the bar at the regionals because mother D pulled a fast one on you?

hey rookie, come back when you are done flying traffic watch and actually have enough hours to get hired by a regional. If you can't see the difference between 9e's concessionary contract (bankruptcy/judge imposed anyways with worse terms/death) vs a concessionary contract because you "might" get more flying, you shouldn't have the lives of 50 plus people in your hands. Stick to traffic watch please.

"hey rookie, come back when you are done flying traffic watch"

That's gonna leave a mark.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/6209...got-real-o.gif
This ish just got real girlfriend!!!

On a side note, traffic watch probably payz better than being a three striper on the heavy niner… 4 life.

Ken, is there an explanation why we (9E) doesn't get to fill our quotas? Mind you I have read the emails but still don't understand why we don't get our CA spots before it goes in seniority order. Furthermore, is anyone internally waving the BS flag disputing this?

But you can't deny that you guys were lied/duped into the POS that is the SSP.

Here's an example:

"You must be" for Captain is correct.

The last part "or on leave holding a Captain position" is correct.

The middle part "or have been" is a LIE. This was to bait n' hook for downgraded CAs and future downgraded pilots to still think they have a chance.

Here's Delta's wording:

It's clear only current Captains or leave Captains are eligible, not downgraded CAs that are now FOs. So that having been said, if 9E pilots that are not Captains - the FOs - can't even participate in the SSP then what makes anyone think they will hire RJ FOs from 9E outside the SSP? If they wanted to consider FOs they certainly could within the SSP. Take the hint though that through the SSP they only want Captains, then you can be fairly certain no 9E FO will be hired outside the SSP.

Add to that history.... NWA (most of the current senior Delta management) wouldn't touch Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots. The worst way to get a job with NWA was to take a job at Airlink.

It's because its not a vacancy. Your dealing with displacements. Colgan couldn't displace PNC but they could displace Mesaba because Mesaba was over there number and they did. PNCL did not get displaced by colgan that got displaced by more senior PNCL pilots from JFK. Remember this was a net loss of captain slots on the 200. Colgan was able to keep their seats they had because of how seniority works.
once you have a seat its yours until someone can kick you out by a displacement. With the BLOCH ISL it addressed quotas and myself including thought that it meant you had to maintain those levels but that's only really applies when we increase staffing. If there was a vacancy for 200 positions all would go to PNCL because their below their quota. Just like how junior some of the 900 slots went to mesaba because of the quota.


In reality though were all just buying time. We are going to 81 airplanes and the company is in deep. They still don't know how to fix this mess. Also remember to keep in eye on the mesaba quota and see how junior the 900 slots go. However those are 2004 hires. Its amazing to me how one may think they got screwed in integration to later find out they made out pretty good.

En ingles, por favor?
En anglais, si'l vous plait?

Wow you make Wendy and Gary, and the rest of Howard Stern's Wack Pack look like mensa.... if Alpa was a true UNION, Moak and Wychor would have collectively stood up with membership and collectively shown Anderson their arssholes. Instead they threw everyone under about number 900 under the bus. And with the FO pay even half the lifers are screwed... It's all about the top senior getting theirs at everyone elses' expense now.... Personally I will do anyting to send T.W. back to FO or the unemployment line. Then maybe he will have a clue
The "Bendover" contract is a direct result of the years past due Republic contract plus Mesa and the small longevity of Compass and GOatJets. Now PSA gets to try to match it, next is Espressjet then SkyWest will... The 85% at Bendover deserve blame for voting with anything besides a dirty butthole but I digress....

]


Good to know that SENIORITY works that way when 07 Colgan keep captain spots with NO AIRPLANES (scaring the crap out of the 7 year FOs' having to fly with them), while 06 Pinnacle and 05 Mesaba are all sent packing....

I have no dog in this fight but you guys realize that date of hire means very little in a SLI. Colgan pilots didn't ask for this and 07 Colgan hires went to Colgan before Q400s even existed there. Pinnacle came in with their horrible management and Colgan no longer exists because of it. So point all the fingers you want but it's not their fault. Also don't forget the 2008 Colgan hires that lost almost 30% seniority. I don't see them complaining.

No not joking...I've looked on the website and have found nothing. Is it only posted in ops? If so, when will they post it online so I can see it? I won't be in ops for a while. Thanks!

odds are about 85% voted yes for this s-bag contract so yes I still blame them as well. Now a downgrade means you need a second income to support a family. And every other (see PSA, Eagle, ExpressJet) regional is being put in a position to match that crap.

Sure they did…

It's on the website under Flightops --> Vacancy --> Award

If you don't see it listed there, I would clear the cache on your browser and try again.

If that doesn't work pm me.

If Pinnacle had not purchased Colgan they were going out of business... That's fact straight from Colgan, they had no money left.
So wether you were first or last on the Colgan list none of them have any right to complain, and especially the 2008 hires.
Personally straight DOH would have been more then fair to that group.

The fraud ALPA committed on the TWA pilots led to McCaskill-Bond, which prevented you from getting anything other than an equipment merger, even though Colgan was an alter ego of 9E from 07-10.

If it's still not working, try to enable compatibility view when on the flypinnacle page. It's the icon in the address bar that looks like a piece of paper with a lightning bolt through it.

But does McCaskill-Bond apply to a Major with a regional?

Don't use Endeavor as your scapegoat. (But I know you will because people like you love to blame others for your problems.) I think this is still a free country and everyone is allowed to vote as they wish. PSA, Eagle, ExpressJet and the rest can vote as they please.

Yes, but with record profits and the union playing nice at mainline, management would be foolish to rock the boat. However, the next economic downturn at the majors is going to be way worse than the previous ones. The best advice is to always have a back up plan even if you get hired by a mainline.

Pinnacle is a worst case scenario, they got all of the Colgan pilots, but none of the Colgan airplanes. This could easily happen at a mainline if the union isn't careful. A separate union like SWAPA can craftily side step around it carefully, whereas ALPA has no choice due to ALPA merger policy.