Your answer is after Flows, 76% of off the street hires are military. You’ve got a 24% chance of making it happen.

No puppet?

Over the next few years, hiring numbers at American will increase. This year’s target is 900 (or 930). In just 5 years, mandatory retirement will be 957 for the year, up from 528 this year.

That means one of three things. Flow numbers will increase. OTS Military will increase. OTS Civilian will increase. Or some of all of the above.

I have a furrowed brow as to how many more OTS Military can increase, unless AA is able to steal more from the other majors hiring stream. How many more will be hired from flow each month? Some more, but at some point AA does not want to cave in their WO.

My crystal ball says, while flows will increase some, there will be a significant increase in OTS Civilian (more than the 9% of total hires in 2017). Flow will still be bigger than OTS Civilian, but the 9% was a drop in the bucket last year.

Things are about to get real interesting.

I’m looking forward to the difference in airline economics in the next decade than the past 2 or so decades. AA is my dream, but I don’t want to limit myself to a WO since I’m not military. I would be working towards as much TPIC, CKA, 4 year degree, and I am a minority, but I don’t believe that should matter. Only the most qualified should get a call, but I’m no recruiter so it is what it is.

He won't be waiting for the flow. He doesn't strike me as the type to sit back and wait for 6 to 9 years. I meant he'll be picked up by DAL, UAL, SWA, FDX, UPS or AA outside the flow. He probably has a solid network built.

Just to add to this. Y’all better befriend him and stop taking a dump on his success thus far. Besides potentially having a decent network (or does?), he seems like an awesome guy to be around.

This brings up a question. Let's say a swayne-type person gets a couple of years of 121 time and gets an interview invitation at a major at 25. At the same time, a 40-year old captain who works for the same regional as the other guy and has at least twice the flight time and comparable educational credentials and achievements does not get an invite while applying during the same window. Isn't this a definition of age-based discrimination? Not even talking about the performance comparison during the interview because one of the two pilots hasn't even been given an opportunity to perform. Thoughts?

Happens every day unfortunately.

The majors are hiring guys in their 60’s right now, so it’s going to be tough to prove age discrimination. He seems like the type of guy who will take to the steps to bolster his resume. He probably has some good mentors as well. This is what will get him an invite, not his age or his Vlog. He will put the work in, that’s not a knock on anybody here waiting to flow, just an observation based off watching the one video in the link.

Again, not talking about being hired but simply about being called in for an interview, i.e. being given an equal opportunity. One could argue that it doesn't matter how many candidates who are older than our 40-year old captain are invited to interview - as long as there's at least one less experienced younger person invited in place of a more experienced 40-year old, there's a case of ageism.

It’s not age discrimination if that 40year old captain didn’t actively try to get an interview everyday. The flat out truth is that a lot of the “40year old CAs” that are out there are not activiely trying to get hired. You can’t just put in an app, update it once or twice a year and not have outside sources look at it. You need letters of rec., you don’t know someone there? Fine, go meet someone there. You work in the same industry for Christ sake. If you think about how hard you worked in initial training on your first 121 job, or how hard you worked for that CFI initial...if you’re not working that hard for a job at DAL, AAL, etc. you’re not going to get hired. There’s too many apps on file. If your attitude is, I have so much experience, I shouldn’t have to work that hard for a job or pay for someone to look at my app. Then sorry, but your just not going to get that call. Even in today’s rapidly changing environment.

This is the truth. And anyone here who is over 40, and says otherwise they are lying to thereself. Unfortunately you have to work a little harder than just filling out an app and paying for a subscription to airline apps. It may take a application/interview prep course and an internal letter of rec or a couple job fairs to get you that job. Also offer some help to alpa, offer to help the safety organization at your airline or work hard and become a check airmen, work with recruiting etc. this is the gods honest truth.

I hope you read this and don’t get mad, and just use it as motivation to fix up your app and get out there and get hired. The work you put in now will benifit long down the road. Everyday you wait, you’re leaving money and scenority on the table. Don’t wait for the flow. Use the flow like is state farm insurance. Good luck friends.

Yeah, that's not what I was asking at all. Nothing to do with my motivation or myself for that matter. Let's say, two individuals equally often update their apps for a period of one year at a major airline so both technically hit unannounced application windows. Equal education. One is younger has x amount of 121 time, no TPIC, and the other is older and has twice as much 121 time, plus 1000 121 TPIC. For this example these are the ONLY objective qualifications. Everything else for the sake of this argument is unknown and we'll treat as subjective factors. A younger applicant receives an interview invitation, the older applicant does not. Is this the case (and this case alone!) of age-based discrimination or not? All I'm asking for are the arguments for or against. And not a lecture on motivation :)

It's not.

In any other case
A. The burden of proof that someone else was chosen over you is squarely on you. Good luck with that.
B. At various times and various places different quals are preferred. Someone with a recent history of successful training might be more hireable than 15+ years in the same aircraft type of a pilot. Such is life.

You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?

Insert Jim Carrey quote from the movie Dumb & Dumber:

“So your saying there’s a chance.”

Pilotmunk,

It’s not ageism (I hate that term, more on that latter). First of all, your hypothetical doesn’t work, there are too many variable the employer is looking at for them to be the exact same. Second, do major airline apps even have a place to put your age? Third, bottom line the company is going to hire whoever they think is the best fit and will add the most value to their company. Why would they care about age? If they did, they’d probably favor older pilots who will be less than the top wage scale. Lastly, you’re basically advocating that pilots be sorted by age and interviewed from oldest to youngest, wouldn’t that in and of itself be “ageism”? Who’s to say older is better?

Ageism...I was deplaning as a non rev passenger. I had put my bag back about 10 rows and was waiting for pax to clear before retrieving it. A woman in her early twenties also had her bag back a few rows.

She asked the FA what to do. I said “you wait for an opening and then make your move, like the game Frogger, oh you’re too young to know that game”

When we made it back to our bags, she murmured under her breath at me that she didn’t appreciate my Ageist comment. I kept my composure and didn’t say anything, but have to admit I was a bit shocked. I mean it be one thing if I insinuated that she looked older, that might be rude, but WTF?

Can we expect to see a Vlog of your first day of INDOC Swayne? :D

Let's say the sun is triangular and green. For the sake of the argument.
That's the whole point - Can prove age discrimination? Go ahead and sue for age discrimination.
Can't? Don't. "That person got the interview because of age/sex/ethnicity/whatever" "No, that person's background is a better fit for what we are looking for".
Exercise in futility.
Not ageism. One candidate spent enough time in the field to gain the basic experience, but probably not enough time to become engrained in doing things a certain way, so is probably more trainable and as such more desirable as a potential candidate. Boom.

She was late to the airplane, has no sense of humor and probably not much to look at. Her problems are just begining.:D

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I do not advocate that candidates should be interviewed in the reverse age order. As anyone else here, I am certain, I believe that candidates should be invited to interview based on relevant qualifications first and foremost. Refusing an employment opportunity (which starts with an interview) to someone who is qualified because of the applicant's age is illegal. One can construe that the equal opportunity laws are violated if a younger applicant with lower qualifications than an older applicant is given an opportunity to interview while the older applicant is not (with all other factors being equal). It is irrelevant whether we appreciate this protection or not. It's the law. Ageism in employment is illegal.

Airline applications ask for the date of birth.

Employers absolutely can (and should) interview and hire only those who in their opinion "is the best fit and will add the most value to their company". As long as the equal opportunity laws are not violated.

I can see how my example may seem too simplistic. But that's the whole point. I want it to be as clear-cut as possible because I'm just looking for sound arguments why this may not be an example of age-based discrimination. So far I'm not seeing any. For instance, I am curious if anyone might think that an employment opportunity does not start with an interview but instead is initiated at the point of application submission. I don't know.

I guess if I am really curious I should be asking lawyers but I'm not THAT curious.

It's not about suing, it's not about proving anything. It's merely a reasoning exercise.

What you describe here (and in your earlier example) is a prima facie case of age discrimination. But that's all it is. The burden then shifts to the employer to demonstrate a non-discriminatory reason for the decision -- which is the key step to the analysis.

Age has nothing to do with the interview invitation process at AA. Even flight experience doesn’t play that big a role since everyone getting selected is “competitive” in some way.

Mil guys are competitive due to their background.

Some people are competitive due to their connections...family and close friends on the seniority list (bonus points if they are in management). This is big since you’re a known quantity.

Someone like Swayne brings unique qualities to the table because of his enthusiasm for aviation, and how he creatively tries to help educate his peers about aviation. Yes, recruiting managers notice this type of attitude. He is also likely well networked.

Just saying, “I’m a 40 year old who is well-qualified” isn’t “competitive”. You need an edge to stand out from 10,000 resumes (over half of which probably update regularly). The 20-something year old getting hired probably has an edge (that may have nothing to do with volume of flight experience).

The majors can be picky. They can invite friends and family before unknowns. They can prefer mil experience. They can invite the guy with the YouTube site or the person who volunteers on weekends.

There is no such fantasy world as “yeah, but assuming all things being equal”. Life isn’t equal (or fair). Anyone wanting to get hired needs to get noticed. My first questions to people complaining about not being able to jump the flow or get hired off the street are:

Have you ever physically stopped by AA recruitment at the Flight Academy to introduce yourself and ask to speak with a recruiter?

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

Do you ever get a business card from AA guys you jumpseat with and offer to buy them a coffee to talk about Pilot stuff or strategies for getting hired. I’ve met AA guys who mentor other pilots and even students getting their certificates.

Did you attend the AA virtual job fair on Pilot Credentials he other day? I heard that many people who did one-on-one sessions with a recruiter during the fair got invites.

Too many people are just looking for excuses like age discrimination. You HAVE to play the game to get hired outside of flow.

^^^^^^^ This 100%

Whiskey is on point here... and I wouldn't normally say that.

pilotmunk, if you're not getting what's being told to you here, you simply don't want to get it. You're question has been answered multiple times.

Whiskey4,

Well put, that’s what I was trying to say, but couldn’t quite find the right words.

This is the kind of stuff that needs to be posted more often on forums and FB pages. Really good advice here. I now know what to do to get and stay competitive when I get to the 121 world. Thanks for the post!

No problem! Another thing to know is that AA (and most majors) appear to have a preference for check airmen. If you look at who has already jumped the flow, I’d bet that many had a line check airmen letter. It would be a good idea for quality DECS to look into being a check airman in their fleet once they have the requisite experience.

Here is some info about the virtual job fair that I ran across in the AA forum here on APC:

Yesterday 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armypilot
Where is the information being posted about AA's virtual job fairs, or how do we go about throwing our name in the hat to be invited to one?

Thanks!
AP
It was advertised right on the aa.pilotcredentials.com to the left of where you logged in at least a few weeks before the event. I'd imagine they will do another one this year. You register for it with the same email your app is registered with.

So if this dude can VLOG and post pictures on his IG, does the union have any interest in working to get this privledge for the entire pilot group??? :confused:

LOL... thanks, I needed this.

This is a great post with great ideas.

Skip this part though, trust me.

Ive heard that you should put down that you are from a "insert perceived minority group here" on your application as what can they say in this day and age? Everyone is allowed to identify how they see fit. My DNA results showed that I am 1.5% African American, so I guess I qualify as placing that on my app.

Why can’t the whole pilot group have this privilege? https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1iufr5qy0csws

Look, the guys getting hired outside of flow are the ones being proactive about chasing down every opportunity to get the interview. It's that simple. That isn't age discrimination, it rewarding those with the drive to make the effort to succeed.

This!! ^^^^ truth

I mean I feel like it definitely helps. The more diverse you are the more it seems to score you points on your application through whatever weird rating system they seem to use. Swayne is gay, not that I’m bashing or that this is some kind of spoiler alert, he instagrammed about his boyfriend so it’s public knowledge and he’s out. All I’m getting at is that he is both diverse and well connected and apparently looked upon highly because he’s revolutionary in that he took information that is available in books and posted videos on the internet, groundbreaking. Anyway, the sad truth is he will be at a major (probably mainline AA) long before most people that are more qualified and that have paid their dues longer.

Are you guys not allowed to take pictures before the door closes/after door opens? I don't see what he is doing that anyone else can't

That’s what I would do.

Swipe through the photos. Posting photos from in flight.

If you would have bothered to read the caption, you would know that the inflight photo was taken by a passenger.......

*que price is right losing music*

But yes I get what you mean in general.