That wouldn’t solve the problem necessarily. The problem is different types and a seniority system that doesn't permit type specific furloughs. Take the Delta A220s. Or whatever the junior aircraft type is in any airline. How many of the senior people are rated in them? When you have nine different fleet types and can’t furlough by type, even if it is just random assignment and not stratified by pay scale, the training costs become huge for any downsizing.

The ability to fly the A318, 319, 320, CEOs, NEOs and XLR by everyone at the airline is a huge advantage, as is commonality of parts and maintenance. Strangely, Boeing pioneered the concept with the 757/767 joint type rating but then sort of let it get away from them.


But with a common 320 family type a pilot can fly anything from a 130 pax 3200 nautical mile range aircraft up to a 240 pax 4000 nautical mile aircraft. Savings on training and maintenance logistics are huge.

If you’re not, you just discredited your own post.

Less cancellations than expected actually.
But this is just rd 1. Rd 2 soon to follow.

Wow, that is surprising considering how much I have already lost. Thank you for the update.

I lost one turn. It just depends what you had in your schedule.

A bigger problem might not be that flow might be gone in bankruptcy, but that Envoy might be gone in bankruptcy along with one or both of the other WOs. If flying demand remains low that AAG has to reduce its regional footprint, they still have to honor their contracts with Skywest, Republic, and Mesa. They also have to honor scope with APA. One of the easiest ways to accomplish that would be to shut the doors on a WO or two or three.

It won't be long, but I imagine we'll soon see a MEC letter saying that Pedro approached the union saying that AAG needs to consolidate regional flying to just one WO, just like what is happening with Expressjet. If we don't agree to XYZ concessions, then AAG will move all our planes and flying to PSA or PDT. It won't really matter, though. One of the pilot groups will undercut the other two for survival. The others will be given "preferential hiring" at the remaining WO, and the guys who just missed the flow will be invited to start over at the bottom of the survivor's list, just like United hoped the TSA pilots would follow the 145s they flew to bottom of the Expressjet list. No crystal ball, just looking at history repeating itself.

Just throwing out another perspective.

This is spot on. I love THKoolaids response calling airlines sweatshops that actually give their pilot groups a great QoL.

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That is in such bad taste.

when that conversation goes down at PSA...

”hey guys, in order to stay in business, we’re going to need you to take some conce-“

”yes. We will do it.”

Yeah no thanks. I would rather leave the industry altogether than start over at the bottom of another regionals list. I also see no reason to give concessions as I dont think any concession we make will be enough to make any real difference other than to briefly stall the inevitable.

Tough times ahead for sure, but if we could just get the three WO's to stand in unity, we may just get through this.

First tell aag cancel all non w/o contracts ie. Skw, rah and mesa. Do that first, make a public statement to ybye media and file it withc.dtbye sec first, then and only then will we come to the table with no nda signed.

Look at the TERMS of the scope agreement with APA. Now understand that APA does NOT look upon you as junior comrades and eventual buddies. You, far more than the ULCC crew that together are pulling down $320- 350 a flight hour are the cheap competition they are fighting against. NK and F9 may be competing with them for pax, but they are at least competing at a sizable fraction of APA PAY, not at $140 an hour. And that to fly THEIR Pax In THEIR company’s metal. Which is what scope is all about.

So scope is limited - both as to total flight hours and to total number of regional aircraft (limited to a percentage of mainline narrow bodies). The early retirement of the E-190s and the older 737s, coupled with deferrals of the Future 321XLR orders combined with the decreased overall flying is going to mean that something has to give and decreasing assets they control will actually be cheaper than paying a premium to cancel contracts.

So yeah, lose a few more aircraft in bankruptcy and push could really come to shove...

Tiers of cancellation?

when does round one start and when does round two begin? Or is it a continuous thing throughout the month based on real time loads? Just curious about this process.

I too was unaware that AA had tiered cancelation packages, but I can assure you that if they do, round 1 already happened yesterday morning. It would seem that many peoples schedules have seen reduced flying, upwards of 50% by some accounts.

If there is indeed a round two, which I cant see why there wouldn't be as dera has shown to be correct in most of their statements, it would be even worse than what we see now. This is going to get really bad as Excargodog mentions if scope issues start coming into play and a reduction in lines, I cant see a way out of greater furloughs.

Next round wont cut as much as this round did. They get sent out in packages so CS has time to figure things out.

Additional schedule changes just went through this morning. Looks like they cleaned up the discontinuities from yesterday and cancelled a few more.

My discontinuities were all fixed by yesterday afternoon. I had about 30% cut from my August schedule plus some the end this month. I think I got one fixed by adding back in a flight and one that has a deadhead now, Plus some 48ish hour lost days. Nothing else this morning. I still have some Mexico overnights. Anyone have those go away?

had some Mexico turns cancelled, but kept most mex overnights. Lost PVD and DCA overnights, and a DCA to DSM fly through

10 legs lost in AUG

9.28 years
 

Wow thats long! If the flow dissolves in bankruptcy wouldn’t it be better to have a guaranteed interview. This way AA hires the most qualified, competitive, and worthwhile. Some iffy people have flowed that an interview would have had possibly filtered. Whats endeavors pass rate now? Probably accurate.

You do realize AA WO’s have a flow to keep them staffed?

If there is anybody "sketchy" that squeezed through it would be some of the old timer Eagle guys who came from Chaparral, Flagship or Bizex. You don't have that problem anymore as 99% of the hires are cadets from pipeline universities who are thoroughly vetted and highly qualified. They are screened and hired as AA pilots from the get go. That's why Envoy doesn't have the problem Endeavor does. And in light of this, no, a preferential interview will never happen here.

​​​​​​Please say it louder, we RTP guys at the back can't hear you!

I don't totally disagree that on average the quality of regional pilots has gone up. I think it has, mostly, but it has nothing to do with special vetting or 141 cadets.

The difference is the money. Envoy (and the regionals generally, now) pay enough to attract professionals with options who live in tolerably low cost of living areas, and who want to make money flying. When you pay $19,000/yr and your employees learn w/in 12 months that 30% of that goes to work related expenses, crash pads etc, the people with options tend to leave, unless they truly love it and would've done it for free.

The Envoy kid in my crash pad who couldn't tell the difference between Montreal and Toronto would beg to differ.

That’s just another flat out LIE. Fortunately 99% of Envoy hires are NOT cadets. Envoy hires from all backgrounds.

Exactlly and the Class Drop List thread has the data to prove it too. In my newhire class only 5 were cadets.

Same. I believe we had 5-8 in my class of 25+.

The fact that you think this is the reason you’re not getting lucky is peak incel pilot.

AA flow also keeps the WO cheap with few or no very senior pilots

Flow at 9.28 Years
 

Dafuq?

Envoy was hiring anyone with a pulse back in 2016/2017.

Who wasn’t? I mean seriously if you had a clean record any of them would hire you, if you had some issues Mesa would snatch you up.

In what world does any Legacy or Major need a WO to staff their airline?

The only people to actually believe that went to said WO to justify why they went to said WO. If you went to a WO, while taking a paycut, less insurance, less retirement than any other regional, all while justifying it for a flow to WO because "they need to staff the legacy", I'm not surprised why you believe what you said.

In theory, the flow from the 3 WO’s provide consistent and complete control on their hiring metrics. Companies, not just aviation companies, love to have as much control over their data as they can and the flow allows AAG to do just that. AAG can see EXACTLY the type of pilot we are, things that you simply cannot get out of a 1-1.5 hour interview. However, I don’t think that AAG NEEDS a WO to remain staffed, but it does provide the best insight into who they are hiring, if that makes sense.


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In a world where legacy airlines need to outsource flying to cheap regionals to help afford the higher pay rates of mainline flying. You know... the world we live in.

OR do you mean to ask, in what world does a Legacy or Major need a WO to help staff the Legacy or Major? If so, that's not what he was saying.

I thought that was literally what I just said, and him? I guess I missed the point.

I agree with everything you say, but I just don't think it happens that way in reality. How many examples are there that prove otherwise? Do you honestly think AA, as the example here, needs PSA, Piedmont and Envoy to be staffed? AA might not need to hire outside of the WO, but that doesn't necessarily mean they need to own them to staff AA. You look at Southwest, UPS, and FedEx. Obviously those are prime examples, but it also proves otherwise.

If Delta, United or AA had no WOs at all, do you think they wouldn't be staffed otherwise? What about Spirit or Frontier? As they say, if you pay, they will come. That isn't the same thing as a pipeline from a WO. If PSA, Piedmont, and Envoy weren't WO, you don't think they'd all apply to the Legacies or Majors anyway?

No matter WO or not, flow or not, every regional pilot would apply to the legacies or majors regardless. I don't think pilots went to Piedmont, PSA, or Envoy because they had good benefits or pay. They went for a flow, which is also why their WO benefits are below other regionals that aren't WO.

I think you did miss the point. He was saying that they use flow to keep their regionals staffed, not to keep AA staffed.

They don’t really need to keep either staffed now, unfortunately...

Ah. Well sure. That is also why people go to WO with a flow and accept lower pay and benefits than the non WO. It's also probably why so many people hate SkyWest.

You are backwards.

That is not what havick meant.

Big daddy needs a WO with flow to be staffed for the REGIONAL. The point of the flow is to control movement and cost at the WOs AND to keep those WO regionals staffed.

At no point anytime since deregulation and for quite a while before were the majors, legacies, national or what ever you want to call any airline that paid at least a living wage unable to find more than enough highly qualified pilots.