Flow at 9.28 Years
 

For all the new hires wanting to come to Envoy for the AA flow-thru agreement, please note the latest ALPA projected flow date for the most junior pilot on property:

Years to American: 9.28 years
Transfer Date: January 2029

You'll have thousands upon thousands of new hires from 2020-2028 above you on the seniority list by the time you would be eligible to crossover... if the flow still exists or isn't metered by the company.

While the new United Aviate program does not have any guarantees, you could at least be in a pipeline to start with United in as little as 2 years. Under the old United Career Path Program, there were pilots at CommutAir going over to UAL in ~2 years. Crazy.

Sub 2 years amazing

I dont believe you have to work at a ual feeder either, at least that's how I read it. So envoy pilots should check this out, even at five year flow you will be at ual 3 years sooner taking in the money and seniority.

I think it may be exclusive to their UAX carriers, but it looks like they may be expanding the program to secure a feed.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/10/03/united-airlines-ramps-up-recruitment-to-hire-10000-pilots-over-next-decade.html

So the guys that joined in 2016 would flow per ALPA projection in about 5 years some show 4.9 i believe, how come those guy didnt flow yet? I just checked and it looks like they’re on track to flow in just about the time ALPA is projecting.

Let me put it this way, if you flow a few months quicker than ALPA projection, that’s realistic. I do not believe someone showing 7+ years to flow would flow in 5.5 or 6.

Well, 2016 + 5 years =2020/21... that's why they havent flowed yet. I can say that my flow time has dropped from 6.5 years to about 5.25.

As far as what the future holds, FIIK.

This is exactly my point, it flow times were to move up significantly these guys would be flowing soon but they're not. They’re still on track with what the projections show

Well if you listen to dfw regarding pay raise retro loa, the increased flow for the PPP cant happen because it's not in the contract yet.

I think that had more to do with the grievance system in the website rather than being able not being able to grieve it. But funny none the less.

Could be, fair enough. I had interpreted it as union could not grieve it.

Only Air Wisconsin, Mesa, Expressjet, and CommutAir are eligible carriers for Aviate.

This^ Honestly it’s a scam program anyway. ExpressJet had an overall 20% success rate of the old CPP and this “Aviate” program is no better.

Not to mention QOL and pay is terrible at the UAL feeders.

This is just to lure people in the door without spending extra cash.

The program could prove to be improved over the long haul but the past metrics prove otherwise...

Also keep in mind this guy is likely drumming up PR for the “Aviate” program to poach people. Today is the first day he started posting.

Take a look at what the XJT and Air Wisconsin guys think of the program. That should tell you enough...

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/e...87-aviate.html

Oh neat. Thanks for making an account just for this. It’s not remotely obvious at all. 🤣

Regardless they are fairly accurate with everything except for that last paragraph and who knows, they may be correct on that as well.

The flow here has less and less value the newer you are, almost to the point of being useless. I for one welcome other major carriers to start programs because it will lift the entirety of regional flow programs.

Remember flow for the last group of pilots (after L1011 guys) is based off of a percentage of total number of pilots at the company. With Envoy growing at the rate it is, even with attrition of pilots to other airlines, the total pilot group will grow hopefully pushing the group after the L1011 guys back up to 25-30 a month. I truly believe even the guys and gals showing 9+ year flows will be surprised when they're flowing in under 7.

Lastly I'd just like to say people have this notion, (especially at the WO's) that getting to a Legacy somehow is easy because we see the top 29 people skim off to AA every month. Trust me, it's not. If that was the case all Check Airman, Captains with 1000+ PIC, etc. (from all airlines) would all be gone and there by now. I can't tell you how many people I know who are fully qualified, do all the right things, and still haven't gotten any call from anywhere. I try and stay away from the Kool Aid but I'm also no fool in not valuing the flow that we have.

After L1011 you will be lucky to see a high of 22 flow, maybe. No 25- 30 per month

How many on property would we need for 25, for 30? In recent history we’ve been floating at less than 2500 or so Right? Don’t see that bumping up significantly if previous history continues.

Don’t have the formula handy now.

Even if we have 3000 pilots, the agreement is the lesser of 25% of AA slots or the formula based on how many pilots at envoy. So if AA hire 1000 pilots in a year we would flow 20/month even with 3000 or 4000 pilots on property.

Yup... that’s the kicker; the LESSER of the two. Even 20 a month is extremely optimistic.

Our union president and negotiating team showing their talent once again. They sold out the majority of the pilot group for a select few, just as Sam P did right before he left. At least he had the nuts to admit as much in his email.

Sam had given the store away long ago. Everything he did was an Lou not an loa. Lou company with 30 ton90 day notice to cancel. Loa is permanent. Sam is enjoying aa being in Boston sitting reserve and as before doing nothing.

Requirements to flow?
 

What requirements are in place in order for someone to flow? Eg: captain for How many years?

CA for one year. No step letters on file. That’s it.

If someone has been with the company since 15 and they are on mil leave do they still need to upgrade in order to flow?

Yea I'm pretty sure they made that requirement because of the people hanging out on mil and med leave

Yes, want to flow then you have to come back and pay your dues.
Those days were over a year ago.

Yes. Letter 18-01 outlines the requirements to flow. Even the PP’s have been subject to it after coming off of MIL leave.

Pay what dues?

Come to Indoc to get a seniority number, disappear for a few years on MIL/ Medical leave and then reappear just before you flow. This means if you ended up on the 145, you come back as a 175 FO on top of the seniority list with less than 100 hours and get to bid day lines.

Yup they are already coming back. There looks like four or five guys that came back off leave.

Really?

/filler

Every time I hear that ridiculous statement just tells me you’re one of those pilots who doesn’t know their value. Also your believe that we should pay some kind of dues doesn’t add up. I dint see you gone for 6 months on deployment, trying not to get shot down over Syria. Not trying to be rude but this fallacy of “paying dues” is such a stupid statement.

I don’t think he’s talking about the guard guys that do a 6 month deployment or two, he’s referring to the ones actively trying to avoid ever flying the like at Envoy and then flowing.

The new LOA closed that loophole.

Then you have to fly a 1,000 hours as a FO then upgrade and be a captain for a year. So you better come back at least 2.5 years before you flow.

1 year as CA

So you want access to automatic flow provided by Envoy but don’t think you should have to put any time in at Envoy. Got it. :rolleyes:

See I have 3k with envoy. 4 deployments I’m loosing on seniority by being stuck in desert as we speak. I payed my “dues” bruh!

OK. That’s a little different angle than you took in your prior post though.