Originally Posted by pangolin (Post 3050754)

Back to the subject - did any envoy employee receive this memo?

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 3050895)

The major problem with your theory is that it is not a preferential hiring program. Delta and United have preferential hiring programs. AA has a direct seniority based system that is - for convenience - called "flow." Now, the ENY/PDT/PSA interview is itself the AA interview. Every pilot hired in seniority order can transfer to AA when their seniority will hold a slot at AA. This is very much like you would bid a new base, or new equipment by seniority. Same thing. I know for a fact that the AAG legal department was very concerned about the newer "flow" program creating an extremely valid argument supporting single carrier. They still are, which is why they have slowly throttled the flow/transfer from it's original 60% of all new AA new hires down to about 35% of all AA new hires.

While they are definitely not being paid as AA pilots, or under the work rules of AA pilots.... there is a legal argument to be made that they should be as a single carrier. However, I would advise the PSA/ENY/PDT guys not to pursue that at this time. While it would be good for the industry to take the regional flying back to mainline; it would guarantee that almost every PSA/PDT/ENY pilot gets furloughed in October as the APA guys would love to have 5,000 pilots junior to them right now.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3051149)

i know how it works. I was a captain at PSA up until February of this year when I left.

if you were a PSA, envoy or Piedmont pilot and every pilot senior to you was electing not to flow you would be the first guy out... right.

so follow this for a second. American does not have any new hire classes running and they furlough 1000 pilots. It takes 3 years for all the furloughed pilots to get recalled. Then they run the first new hire class in a 3.5 year period of time. Guess what. It added 3.5 years to your flow time. Call it what you want. It’s a preferential hiring program. Until a pilot “flows” and is handed their AA badge and given an APA number they do not work for American Airlines.

I was a captain at PSA which happened to be owned by the same holdings company as American. I enjoyed access to a preferential hiring program that didn’t even require me to interview. All I had to do was have a clean record for the preceding two years and have two years aggregate captain experience. I was not an American pilot.

Saying anything otherwise is not being honest.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3051149)

i know how it works. I was a captain at PSA up until February of this year when I left.

if you were a PSA, envoy or Piedmont pilot and every pilot senior to you was electing not to flow you would be the first guy out... right.

so follow this for a second. American does not have any new hire classes running and they furlough 1000 pilots. It takes 3 years for all the furloughed pilots to get recalled. Then they run the first new hire class in a 3.5 year period of time. Guess what. It added 3.5 years to your flow time. Call it what you want. It’s a preferential hiring program. Until a pilot “flows” and is handed their AA badge and given an APA number they do not work for American Airlines.

I was a captain at PSA which happened to be owned by the same holdings company as American. I enjoyed access to a preferential hiring program that didn’t even require me to interview. All I had to do was have a clean record for the preceding two years and have two years aggregate captain experience. I was not an American pilot.

Saying anything otherwise is not being honest.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3052063)

The point to my post is that WO pilots do not work for AA. Also there are people posting the flow will not be slowed down that much by what’s going on now.


WO pilots are not hired at American until they start at American. That flow program exists only to staff the regional. It has nothing to do with staffing American.

we can call it whatever we want as long as we are honest. Envoy PSA and Piedmont pilots do not work for American.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3052063)

The point to my post is that WO pilots do not work for AA. Also there are people posting the flow will not be slowed down that much by what’s going on now.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3052063)

WO pilots are not hired at American until they start at American. That flow program exists only to staff the regional. It has nothing to do with staffing American.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3052063)

we can call it whatever we want as long as we are honest. Envoy PSA and Piedmont pilots do not work for American.

Originally Posted by highfarfast (Post 3052105)

I've been trying to resist responding to your posts here but I can't anymore. There's a little bit of not being aware of your surroundings here:

The ONLY one saying we're AA employees now is just ONE poster that everyone here tries to reject and correct. And he doesn't even work for Envoy anymore. You're arguing semantics with Cujo665 who is NOT that person... and who also does not work here anymore (he was once a high level union rep so has good info about the past though).

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 3052319)

Don't be moronic; of course they do. They are working for AA like any contractor works for AA. The passengers on the planes are AA passengers, not PSA, PDT or ENY passengers. They are not currently employed by AA would be an accurate statement.



Wrong again. They've already been told they're hired; they just have to complete the time at the regional level first. Essentially and apprenticeship. Their AA start date is deferred, that's all.



They are not employed yet by American; they are most definitely working for American, and have been hired at American; with a start date deferred and dependent upon their seniority list position at their regional. A subtle but significant difference.

The fact remains. AAG is in the colleges and universities telling pipeline candidates that this is their one and only interview for their entire career. They'll complete training in college, teach at the College as an Envoy employee, then transfer from pipeline instructor to Envoy Pilot, can bid the equipment and base they want based upon their seniority, and when their seniority holds it, can bid to go train on the Boeing or Airbus at AA under the APA contract instead of the ALPA contract.
It will be very hard to say that is not a single carrier. They themselves are the ones advertising a single cradle to grave interview.

If you want to say they are not an American Airlines pilot currently, I would 100% agree. The only person saying that to anybody is that company stooge who changes his screen name every few weeks to some different variation of mine. He's got Cujo envy.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3053070)

they don’t work for American. Period. Contractors are by definition not employees. That’s why they are called contractors.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot (Post 3053070)

the recruiters are lying to people to get them to voluntarily work for below standard wages and work rules because they are already “hired” at American. Without an APA number and a single contract it will never be any different.