This is a VERY new thing. Honestly so far outside the box from anything Envoy has done. Currently, all captains are required to do right seat familiarization during recurrent. FOs are not a limiting factor right now but there is as far as I know no means of captains picking up on the FO side. As far as those captain qualified FOs go, I would say the same is true. But if you want to fly as a captain then you need to bid as a captain. Not going to be able to pick and choose.

I’ve always wondered what would happen if I sent an RF request for an FO seat. I mean, the form asks what seat so it must mean I can pick it up in theory. And if I was awarded it, would I get captain pay? FO pay? How would premium credit be applied? So many questions…

But I don’t want to fly right seat. So I don’t test the waters.

This came up a few years ago. You can put in for an FO trip as a CA, but you would bid below every FO including out of base, they would only give it to you if it prevents a JM. You'd get normal CA OT pay for it.

So sounds like they're qualifying CA in both seats and have not a clue of what they're gonna do beyond that.

This thread is proving that Envoy is still attracting more DECs than any other airline, and more are on the fence thinking about jumping in. Envoy has a good training department, good aircraft, good work rules, longevity matching, and good pay, especially for those planning to stay and cash in on the bonuses. Many seem to be coming from outside of 121, either due to retirement, part 135 or 91 gigs, career changes, or military, and some are still coming from less desirable regionals.

I think Envoy has a good strategy, training as many pilots as captains as possible. They won’t waste money upgrading pilots after less than a year, and if they get desperate, they can force upgrade the FO bidding DECs early. It appears that Envoy is hurting less for captains than other regionals because they were among the first to raise pay and prioritize those with 121 time or an equivalent. It might hurt them later, but they are focused on the current crisis.

For those who keep asking will they be able to get a base, vacancy bids are usually run at the end of every quarter. I would guess that movement within each base will depend on attrition, upgrades, displacements from the E145, and potential transfers to PHX when that base opens. The 10/31 Indoc class had 3 ORD E175 FOs and the rest got DFW E175 CA or FO according to the class drop thread. The next few classes will probably be similar until a new vacancy is run. Recruiters are likely to tell you what you want to hear, but they can’t predict accurately without knowing whether a recession is finally going to slow down the business or how many pilots will still leave for greener pastures or how many FOs will finally reach 1,000 hours and get upgraded. We live in unprecedented times.

:rolleyes:

/filler/

You left “good QOL” out on purpose cause you probably knew there are 0 lines next month with weekends off at any of the bases. I don't see this improving.

I am sorry I posted too rosy a picture. No, I didn’t know. I look at it from the perspective that pilots complain everywhere and you appear to have fewer complaints than most regionals.

Is PBS going to be implemented soon? Shouldn’t that allow some of the senior pilots to get all weekends off? I would say vote with your feet, but the junior pilots at all airlines will be working holidays and weekends for awhile, and once you get them off, you lose them when you upgrade.

It’s also peak season….low staffing and busy schedules might be an indication of sh!t schedules

They are forcing upgrades. It’s at about 4 years right now.

Hiring non-121 F/O’s
 

So now that Republic has stopped hiring (NOTE: Referring to non-121) F/O’s, AA WO have stopped hiring F/O’s, SkyWest has stopped hiring F/O’s, Horizon is not hiring F/O’s, Mesa has stopped hiring F/O’s, that leaves Air Wisconsin & CommuteAir, Frontier, Spirit, Breeze, Silver, Wheels-Up, Go-Jet, FlexJet, & NetJets who are left hiring 1500 CFI F/O’s. What are these regionals going to do when these high time F/O’s leave for the Legacy’s and the 1500 CFI’s will all be gone to the ULCC or 135 world after being ghosted for so long.

This hiring hubris will bite them in the rear sooner than they think. Envoy mgmt did this back in 2017-2018, and many thought they would have learnt their lesson then.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Even when they created that history.

If those guiding the hiring at Envoy were flying the plane, they’d be lucky to still be holding onto the last rudder static wick. Or as I was once told in an early lesson, if my aircraft was ever involved in a mishap, I wouldn’t be harmed because I was so far behind the plane, I wouldn’t even be at the scene of the accident!

Envoy has stopped hiring FO?

Not exactly, but effectively. They have, for the last several months, until the most recent orientation class, only been hiring those with the experience to immediately be captain. The most recent orientation class had some cadets in it. Not sure how long those guys have been in the pipeline waiting. But if you are not someone with captain qualifications, it will be a LONG wait to even be acknowledged.

How often is orientation?

Once every month

No not exactly. Went to the 11/3 orientation, 15/65 we’re cadets. One I sat next to waited 4 months, another 2, another 6. Staff made it clear they want to hire FOs and cadets…they understand that they can only string those candidates along for so long. Having said that, there were about 5-8 FOs(non cadets) the rest DEC including myself

While all those people are twiddling their thumbs waiting I finished training, got a type and atp and already moved on to a major in about 7 months time. Those people waiting are wasting their career potential. Don’t wait.

How “often” is orientation? Like the 1st Monday of the month, or every 2-weeks, or every Monday? 65 seems like a lot for a class starting per week

No idea how often but that last orientation group was broken down into 2 different classes.

The music always stops for periods of time. Good for you in being able to take advantage of the current hiring opportunities. In my period in aviation, I have seen the industry tank numerous times. The first Gulf War and recession, 9/11, the Great Recession, Age 65 Rule stagnating hiring, Covid. Build a savings account to mitigate the effects of a furlough. It is HIGHLY likely that will happen to most folks at least once in their career. I have always had a backup career outside of aviation and also avoided going into debt for my training. I realize that is hard for most folks. It helped my family survive the ups and downs of this industry and low pay when I first started.

3 classes 11/14, 11/28, 12/12…don’t mean to be that guy. Kinda surprised there’s a December class

Typo on my part that I can't seem to correct. 3 was the magic number.

What's surprising about a December class?

I'll second this. The airline industry, over the long term, is consistently unstable and typically only knows feast or famine. Very few have the luck to ride the right wave through their whole career without having the bottomed fall out at some point. My Dad did 32 years at Delta and never saw a furlough but he'd be the first person to tell you it had nothing to do with superior decision making on his part. In fact, when he got hired at Delta in '72, it was his last choice compared to the juggernauts of the day. As it turns out, most of his friends that got hired at those juggernauts were out of a job a few years later and many wound up on the seniority list at Delta far below him. When I got hired at Comair in 2004 we were the bell of the ball; highest paid pilots in the regional industry and seen as having put our foot down on behalf of the entire regional world by striking to get that contract. A lot of my coworkers looked down their nose as companies like Chautauqua (now Republic) as being operations that were undercutting the work the Comair pilot group did to raise the regional bar. 2 years in I was one class away from upgrade to CA. Then the great recession hit and when I took a buyout and quit in '09 I was 300 numbers away from upgrade and about to go back on reserve. Meanwhile, my piers at Republic were getting TPIC and most have gone on to places like DL, SW, UPS, FedEx, UA, etc. and are now Captains there making ungodly money with pretty good QOL.

I said all that to say 2 things:

1. Today's Cinderella airline is quite possibly tomorrow's wicked step sister so be careful casting stones in what may be a glass house.
2. Whatever company you decide you want to land at, get on that seniority list as quickly as you can. Every stop in between should be seen as simply a conduit to that end. Don't get too caught up in pay rates, shiny jet syndrome, etc. at the way stations.

Unsolicited grizzled old pilot rant over.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Golly - "Envoy is pleased to offer a new Experienced Pilot Bonus for Part qualifying First Officers who receive a conditional job offer between Nov. 15, 2022 and Dec. 31, 2022, and receive a class date as early as January 2023. This limited-time offer will give $100,000 to qualifying pilots with more than 950 flight hours, and $75,000 to qualifying pilots with between 500 and 950 flight hours. The full amount of these bonuses (after taxes) will be paid on Day Zero – the day before training – for pilots in class by March 1, 2023."

While this may be a shuffle of previous bonuses it makes you wonder what the non-wholly owned carriers will do to keep people.

2023 is going to be an interesting year. In the rest of the corporate world, mass layoffs are being announced. Maybe they're hoping to spend some money now to keep things patched together till the recession hits hard and management can get the upper hand in the contract negotiations at the mainline carriers. Then they have two years of reserve CAs that can't leave and they move around as needed to get through the hard times. The non-wholly owned will either sink or swim.

Looks like it's all three of the AA regionals are offering these bonuses. I would think the non-wholly owned will have to offer some outstanding retention bonuses. Merry Christmas, Captains :D

I suspect that $100,000 bonus will require a three year commitment or full repayment. How many pilots will be willing to commit to a regional for that long in this hiring environment? I bet they will entice more early retirees out of retirement, but most regional pilots would be better off aiming for their final career goals.

Republic is offering “up to $100,000” in bonuses for DECs. Commutair is offering a $75,000 DEC bonus and Endeavor is offering a $40,000 DEC bonus. SkyWest is focused on their mandatory upgrades.

It is a 24 month requirement and would last them till rates drop back down. Cadets & New-Hire 1500 CFI type folks will get ZERO Bonuses unless they start a class date before Jan 1.

Those 187k bonuses they advertised prior are being replaced with this program and only high time FO’s & DEC are eligible. Which leads me to believe that Envoy/PSA/PDT have ZERO interest in a brand new-hire FO anymore. Problem is when rates snap back all those 1500 CFI’s that are coming up the ranks are going to know to avoid all AA WO. AA WO are shooting themselves by alienating those new hires. Meanwhile Spirit, Frontier, Breeze and others are snatching them up.

I think it was 24 months unless you go to AA.

The rates don't snap back till 2024, right? They can always just make the new rates permanent whenever they want. 2023 is going to be an interesting year. If things don't go well and the music stops for a bit, the company has an out to save money again in 2024. Airline management is reactive. Right now they're obviously desperate to keep the dam from breaking in the near term. In the long term, I think they're hoping economic events will give them the upper hand again for a while. We'll see what happens.

Anybody hear anything about projections for when they will start bringing on non-121 FOs again? I got an email that said they were "hiring 121 experience captain pilots until the first quarter of 2023". The first quarter 2023 is in a few days, just wondering if anybody had heard anyting

The first quarter of 2023 ends March 31, 2023. I would interpret that statement to mean they are not hiring till after that. That would coincide with the promotion of 100k sign on bonus paid one day prior to class for new hire 121 pilots that start class by March 31, 2023

That sounds logical. Thank you

Any advice?
 

I'm at 58 years with 1800 TT 500 turbine. C510 rating. Any chance I would qualify at Envoy?

They are looking for those who are qualified or coming close to qualifying for captain. Look at FAR 121.436 to see if your time qualifies. But with only 500 total turbine, you are very unlikely to have the time they want. Certainly as an FO when they start hiring off the street FOs, but that’s likely a while off and doesn’t get you the big money initial bonus.

Are they hiring DEC’s? Is it safe to assume one would be on reserve for a long time? Is DFW junior?

Thanks

Yes, Envoy is still pretty much hiring ANYONE with, or close to having, the time to be a captain.

DFW is currently junior, but not a lot of difference between bases. MIA is slightly more senior. PHX, when it opens, is expected to go pretty senior.

As a DEC, you can expect to be on reserve for quite a while. Likely 18-24 months. Every single FO hired before you will continue to keep you on reserve as they upgrade. The only thing that will move you off reserve is enough new DECs hired behind you to move you up. I doubt if there are still enough DECs available to be hired to move you off reserve any time soon.