Envoy Pilots,

Has the union stated what the plan is for permanent pay rates? Potentially attached to PBS?

Thanks

 

No, they haven't. It wouldn't make sense not to extend the pay rates considering so many other regionals have similar permanent rates. Our contract is amendable in 2029. The union won't make an announcement until they have an LOA extending the rates or making them permanent. The rates have already been extended once. The section of LOAs attached to our contract is longer and harder to read than the contract itself.

PBS has been ratified and NAVBLUE is in the process of building our software. We expect the implementation to begin towards the end of the year. We accepted PBS in exchange for deadhead pay, duty and trip rigs, and a minimum of 12 days off a month.

 

Thanks

For context I'm a PSA guy trying to get as much information as possible for union discussions ect.

I agree the pay rates will most likely be extended but PSA can technically roll back end of 2026...

Also starting to question the viability of this "flow"...

 

I would not expect an extension of any serious length of time, and making it permanent won't happen. Once the shortage is over, they'll let the rates snap back at a timeof their choosing, while moving more flying in-house and force the other contract airlines to match the new cost structure or lose more flying. They can also simply let it expire and leave it alone until they decide to use the snap back.

Right now pilot staffing is still the currency on getting and keeping flying. Once the pilot supply isn't an issue the race to the bottom will start again. They will use the snap back to cut costs, pulling flying back into the WO's will cause hiring to slow/stop at the vendor airlines. The Shiny Jet Syndrome will keep the seats filled at the WO's as hiring slows at the vendors. The vendors will be forced to accept concessions to be cost competative and the whipsaw will be in full swing again. They've already reduced or outright stopped most bonus programs... so the cutting has already started.

Right now, the temporary glut of pilots is due to the Boeing, Airbus and P&W issues. As those iron themselves out the hiring will pick back up.... then you've got about another 4-7 years of crazy mainline hiring to go depending on carrier before things slow to a more normal pace. That will be right about the time, or within a year or two after, that your CBA becomes amendable. Once that happens, expect them to use the snap back and start the process. Oh, they'll probably threaten to divest, sell, or shut down one or two of the regionals before then too.

It's just how they roll

 

Flow is only viable as long as AA keeps running classes. There have been several instances where AA shuts off classes to maintain staffing on the lines (Mainline and WO) in addition to the COVID and most recent shut down.

Regional pilot enhanced pay rates are a large drain on AA financially. Unless the hiring environment returns to what it was when the pay rates were implemented I would plan on them being rolled back in 2026. I would also encourage you to gtfo to Delta or United or UPS asap since those three seem to be the most stable financially at the moment. Flow is a nice backup but shouldn't be your primary hope for getting hired at a mainline.

 

Sorry, but I don’t see it happening. The industry has changed, inflation made everything a lot more expensive since the last rates were negotiated. Skywest, Republic, Mesa, CommuteAir, GoJet all have significantly higher permanent rates than the AA wholly owned carriers. AA is going to roll back wholly owned pay rates while the rest of the industry continues to start around $100 and tops out around $230? Sorry, not gonna happen. Hopefully the days of Mesa being able to come in and underbid and then just do a completely ****ty job are far behind us. Quality lift isn’t cheap. Pay it or don’t, but the days of regional captains making 100K a year I think are behind us. AA isn’t losing its shirt because of RJ pilot pay, btw, let’s be serious. AA is making a bet it can serve more markets than UA and DL with big RJ’s because it’s has less restrictions on big RJ’s than the other carriers. It wouldn’t be making that bet if the lift was too expensive.

 

There is nothing permanent in airline CBA's

The days of them making $100k may be gone, but making $150k-$160k is certainly forseable again.

It won't be Mesa undercutting everybody, it will be you, Envoy. The snap back brings pilot costs down, making it much more economical to put additional flying at Envoy, and to even begin transfering flying from the contract carriers back to envoy. This will slow hiring at the contract carriers.

The pilot supply will be sufficient, and already there are thousands of pilots all trying to get regional jobs. If you think they won't take the envoy job for lower pay to get in, and get out sooner, then you're very mistaken. This wil force the contract carriers to accept pay cuts to retain flying. That's just how the whipsaw works.

Will it ever got back to poverty wages and food stamps for FO's.... I don't think so. I think management learned their lesson that in doing so, they eventually over a few decades killed the supply chain of people willing to spend hunreds of thousands to become pilots living on food stamps.... and as the wages dropped so the the hiring minimums until they had to resort to hiring ink wet commercial pilots, and they STILL couldn't staff the flying. That's why in 2015 they started increasing pay and improving working conditions.

The airline industry is very cyclical. What happened before, will happen again. Want to know the future? Look at the past.

 

That seems like an earful lot to give away for PBS…. Was the line bid that bad before?

 

It isn't a matter of whether line bidding is bad or good. The company wants PBS. The company got PBS by way of negotiation. PBS makes for more efficient staffing (less pilots) so that is what they wanted.

 

when did they give away 12 days off? EagleVoy had min 12 days off as far back as the 2000's IIRC.