More great news at Envoy!
09-22-2014 | 01:47 PM
#421
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Just going out on a limb here, but I'd imagine a lot of multi thousand hour and very angry Endeavor FOs are going to PSA. Maybe the same can be said of Envoy, XJT, and maybe Gojets.
Last edited by block30; 09-22-2014 at 02:29 PM.
09-22-2014 | 02:03 PM
#422
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Wow, a well thought out post Bzzt. Usually your posts are bemoaning your position and come across as whining. I wished that you had taken that Compass job. In the long run, it's another regional but you should be a Captain in short order that should enable you to move on to better places sooner rather than later. There are plenty of other jobs out there that include other regionals if you absolutely have to in order to move on right now. I spent years as an Eagle FO and bailed earlier this year for a LCC. I know you've tried hard to move on. And yes, I got lucky but I did put a lot of effort into my search as well. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time as my quals were no different than a thousand others out there.
The best thing Eagle pilots can do is bail out of that AAG cesspool as quickly as possible. Even if it's only for a "slightly greener" pasture if that's all you can find. Hopefully it's not another regional, but if it is then you have to do what you have to do. Hopefully, more Eagle guys walk out the door than what AAG requires at the moment. That's sure to put them in a bind and they aren't counting on it. I'm sure are counting on having enough bodies to play their chess game up until the point where they are ready to furlough and conveniently dispose of the pieces that aren't needed.
AAG knows they can count on the top 500 to be around, but anyone below that hopefully has their apps in everywhere with numbers 500 to 800 or so with the flow as a backup plan only.
Knowing management reads these boards, it only hurts the pilots when you read the overload of grammatical and spelling errors on these posts along with the incessant bi**hing and moaning. We really come across as a bunch of dip**its.
Use these boards as a networking tool and focus on posting positive things like big attrition numbers or multiple flights cancelled due to no crew. I wished that EGL ALPA would post attrition numbers on a monthly basis. It can only help to look at the overall picture and put together what's going on.
Unfortunately your union isn't looking out for you. My LCC is ALPA also and I cannot believe the difference. I view regional ALPA's almost as an extension of management. There were definitely some good volunteers at EGL ALPA over the years but when you really need them they prove to be largely ineffective.
Examples are repeated contract violations, MA's for the 117 reserve fiasco and shortchanging by the payroll department on a consistent basis with almost no recourse over my 7 years there. I tried to use proper channels but I never felt that the union was there to back me up should I really need them. Again, I must stress that there were some great reps and other volunteers that really tried hard, but the organization as a whole is virtually worthless.
The best thing Eagle pilots can do is bail out of that AAG cesspool as quickly as possible. Even if it's only for a "slightly greener" pasture if that's all you can find. Hopefully it's not another regional, but if it is then you have to do what you have to do. Hopefully, more Eagle guys walk out the door than what AAG requires at the moment. That's sure to put them in a bind and they aren't counting on it. I'm sure are counting on having enough bodies to play their chess game up until the point where they are ready to furlough and conveniently dispose of the pieces that aren't needed.
AAG knows they can count on the top 500 to be around, but anyone below that hopefully has their apps in everywhere with numbers 500 to 800 or so with the flow as a backup plan only.
Knowing management reads these boards, it only hurts the pilots when you read the overload of grammatical and spelling errors on these posts along with the incessant bi**hing and moaning. We really come across as a bunch of dip**its.
Use these boards as a networking tool and focus on posting positive things like big attrition numbers or multiple flights cancelled due to no crew. I wished that EGL ALPA would post attrition numbers on a monthly basis. It can only help to look at the overall picture and put together what's going on.
Unfortunately your union isn't looking out for you. My LCC is ALPA also and I cannot believe the difference. I view regional ALPA's almost as an extension of management. There were definitely some good volunteers at EGL ALPA over the years but when you really need them they prove to be largely ineffective.
Examples are repeated contract violations, MA's for the 117 reserve fiasco and shortchanging by the payroll department on a consistent basis with almost no recourse over my 7 years there. I tried to use proper channels but I never felt that the union was there to back me up should I really need them. Again, I must stress that there were some great reps and other volunteers that really tried hard, but the organization as a whole is virtually worthless.
Buddies I'm really sorry you're so bitter. I understand how bad the 00's were and I'm truly sorry you had to live through that. I hope those experiences don't further cloud your judgement of the industry. The flow will work, the increased flow would have worked because mathematically it would have had to. Things are starting to look up in this industry at the mainline level and while that may never truly translate to the regional sector most careers will be just fine in the long run.
09-22-2014 | 02:45 PM
#423
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,041
Likes: 0
From: GV Captain
Bzzt, You mean like these post?
Originally Posted by Mason32 View Post
AA will continue reducing envoy frequency as larger RJs slowly come online. They will also drop the lowest yield markets. They will - within a year - make envoy the ONLY way to AA with a bigger flow program. They will buy other regionals for staffing more than equipment.
Once envoy becomes the only way to AA it will drive recruiting way up as pilots from places like Mesa, TSA, GoJets etc... Race to get hired at envoy. They can continue applying everywhere else, and be secure in their eventual flow to AA. Eventually, AAG will develop an ab-initio program to take them from zero to regional hero, with flow to AA. Finally, once all those pilots dry up, they will eventually bring the flying back in house. Delta will act similarly, but is far behind AAG in getting it set up. I told people for the past few years that the only jobs worth having will be with wholly owned regionals. Soon, you'll all see why.
I've encouraged our guys to get ahead of this and number all the envoy guys. The company controls hiring. They will make envoy the only way to AA, and that will in essence put them in seniority order, and we can't stop it. By numbering them all, we then demand a representation vote. Kick ALPA out, bring them into APA and begin a new contract. Some hard liners here at APA still can't see that we need to do this now before our leverage is gone. If the company does make all of our hiring from envoy, we will lose that leverage. The company is going to use our job as a hiring tool for envoy; while we collect no dues for an entire pilot group that us essentially stapled to our list.
Places like Mesa will eventually become dead end jobs as each legacy after legacy copies this model to attract pilots. As they default on their contracts, the legacies will poach them at giveaway prices.
Knowing how they think, I'd put RAH and AW high on the list for potential acquisition.
This Pilot group got played by Alpa.
Originally Posted by Mason32 View Post
AA will continue reducing envoy frequency as larger RJs slowly come online. They will also drop the lowest yield markets. They will - within a year - make envoy the ONLY way to AA with a bigger flow program. They will buy other regionals for staffing more than equipment.
Once envoy becomes the only way to AA it will drive recruiting way up as pilots from places like Mesa, TSA, GoJets etc... Race to get hired at envoy. They can continue applying everywhere else, and be secure in their eventual flow to AA. Eventually, AAG will develop an ab-initio program to take them from zero to regional hero, with flow to AA. Finally, once all those pilots dry up, they will eventually bring the flying back in house. Delta will act similarly, but is far behind AAG in getting it set up. I told people for the past few years that the only jobs worth having will be with wholly owned regionals. Soon, you'll all see why.
I've encouraged our guys to get ahead of this and number all the envoy guys. The company controls hiring. They will make envoy the only way to AA, and that will in essence put them in seniority order, and we can't stop it. By numbering them all, we then demand a representation vote. Kick ALPA out, bring them into APA and begin a new contract. Some hard liners here at APA still can't see that we need to do this now before our leverage is gone. If the company does make all of our hiring from envoy, we will lose that leverage. The company is going to use our job as a hiring tool for envoy; while we collect no dues for an entire pilot group that us essentially stapled to our list.
Places like Mesa will eventually become dead end jobs as each legacy after legacy copies this model to attract pilots. As they default on their contracts, the legacies will poach them at giveaway prices.
Knowing how they think, I'd put RAH and AW high on the list for potential acquisition.
This Pilot group got played by Alpa.
09-22-2014 | 04:12 PM
#425
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 771
Likes: 0
From: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
09-22-2014 | 04:22 PM
#426
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
Likes: 0
I let myself get wrapped up in the Mason32 propaganda of "1 way to AA", and I turned down a really good offer. I made a mistake, but I'm getting out of aviation now and I'm happy. I hope all the FOs at Eagle find soft landing places, I'm sure they will. Most of the people I flew with were great guys and the FOs I knew from my class and crashpads were stand up individuals as well.
Buddies I'm really sorry you're so bitter. I understand how bad the 00's were and I'm truly sorry you had to live through that. I hope those experiences don't further cloud your judgement of the industry. The flow will work, the increased flow would have worked because mathematically it would have had to. Things are starting to look up in this industry at the mainline level and while that may never truly translate to the regional sector most careers will be just fine in the long run.
Buddies I'm really sorry you're so bitter. I understand how bad the 00's were and I'm truly sorry you had to live through that. I hope those experiences don't further cloud your judgement of the industry. The flow will work, the increased flow would have worked because mathematically it would have had to. Things are starting to look up in this industry at the mainline level and while that may never truly translate to the regional sector most careers will be just fine in the long run.
The only attitude I have is against concessions when you already gave at the store, especially for something management has to give you to maintain the operation as example flow to aa and convince the pilots to pay for it by giving concessions. Then I have an attitude.
I do wish you well in your career whether in aviation or not.
09-23-2014 | 03:54 AM
#428
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
From: 1st year pay for the 3rd time
If PSA and PDT had voted no, Eagle was STILL going to be the higher-cost wholly-owned, (simply because they have such a large and senior pilot group), and for that reason, alone,.... they were necessarily going to shrink.
The only question that remains is this: HOW MUCH is Eagle going to shrink? And the answer to THAT question depends on how much more flying the other (cheaper) regionals can handle.
Eagle was expensive, relative to other wholly-owneds and was going to shrink, either via attrition or flow,.....regardless of PSA or PDT's vote.
And yes, I know they're now "Envoy",....but to me they'll always be "Eagle".
The only question that remains is this: HOW MUCH is Eagle going to shrink? And the answer to THAT question depends on how much more flying the other (cheaper) regionals can handle.
Eagle was expensive, relative to other wholly-owneds and was going to shrink, either via attrition or flow,.....regardless of PSA or PDT's vote.
And yes, I know they're now "Envoy",....but to me they'll always be "Eagle".
The problem with that is the more Eagle shrinks, the higher their costs. The top 300 pilots are at the top of the pay scale and they didn't have to take a pay cut in the last TA. The only way for Eagle to become less expensive is for the senior guys to take a buyout. I doubt AAG will offer a package enticing enough to be considered.
09-23-2014 | 06:57 AM
#429
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
The only attitude I have is against concessions when you already gave at the store, especially for something management has to give you to maintain the operation as example flow to aa and convince the pilots to pay for it by giving concessions. Then I have an attitude.
I do wish you well in your career whether in aviation or not.
I do wish you well in your career whether in aviation or not.
It appears now with RAH, Mesa, Compass, and PSA there won’t be a shortage of guys with 500-1,000 TPIC competing for jobs. The winner out of the 1500 hour rule is not the regional’s as Envoy hoped during negotiations. It is mainline, jobs are coming back to them for free and leaving the regional’s faster than the pilots can, which is the leverage the company holds. It’s good for the industry, but a huge pill to swallow if your 5-8 years in as an FO.
Think about what you’re saying, “I am prepared to burn it down” what you are really saying is “I am prepared to start a fire on the other side of the building” you know your contract. The fire will burn and still be a long way from your office 1500+ numbers deep in the seniority list.
Are you really prepared to be the first to resign so that the most junior FO doesn’t get laid off?
09-23-2014 | 07:25 AM
#430
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,157
Likes: 20
You might be right, but you are generally at a conflict of interest, ultimately you are voting to keep what you have and are trying to convince young FO’s to help you keep what you have. It did appear in the spring that when RAH announced the Chautauqua wind down and consolidation and MESA canceled the GO operation that time was on Envoy pilot’s side. Now that the reality is Envoy FO’s are screwed for good, but you still have what you had. It is difficult to believe you voted on general principle when you are the winner and your fellow FO’s are the losers. I don’t know you personally, but typically, the appearance of a conflict of interest is a conflict of interest.
It appears now with RAH, Mesa, Compass, and PSA there won’t be a shortage of guys with 500-1,000 TPIC competing for jobs. The winner out of the 1500 hour rule is not the regional’s as Envoy hoped during negotiations. It is mainline, jobs are coming back to them for free and leaving the regional’s faster than the pilots can, which is the leverage the company holds. It’s good for the industry, but a huge pill to swallow if your 5-8 years in as an FO.
Think about what you’re saying, “I am prepared to burn it down” what you are really saying is “I am prepared to start a fire on the other side of the building” you know your contract. The fire will burn and still be a long way from your office 1500+ numbers deep in the seniority list.
Are you really prepared to be the first to resign so that the most junior FO doesn’t get laid off?
It appears now with RAH, Mesa, Compass, and PSA there won’t be a shortage of guys with 500-1,000 TPIC competing for jobs. The winner out of the 1500 hour rule is not the regional’s as Envoy hoped during negotiations. It is mainline, jobs are coming back to them for free and leaving the regional’s faster than the pilots can, which is the leverage the company holds. It’s good for the industry, but a huge pill to swallow if your 5-8 years in as an FO.
Think about what you’re saying, “I am prepared to burn it down” what you are really saying is “I am prepared to start a fire on the other side of the building” you know your contract. The fire will burn and still be a long way from your office 1500+ numbers deep in the seniority list.
Are you really prepared to be the first to resign so that the most junior FO doesn’t get laid off?
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