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Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874142)
That's exactly what I am thinking right now. I wanted to go to envoy before MEC confirmed but then ppl saying flow would take over 10yearz and envoy has long reserve (given the current trend I think it's ok to consider it without offending senior pilots who have been in reserve for years) made me reconsider. hence PSA.
UNTIL I read a resent article about PSA morale is down/AA internal meeting video saying that the flow will be reduced to 5 years soon (for me that'd be about 6.5yr flow I think) and PSA contract prevents their pilots to apply at AA Now back to Envoy Seems like while the company is becoming small to its "optimal" size. Some consider it as the company fm going down. Do you know much about DFW and ny base? Reserve time. Which planes etc. I'll be commuting from KFLL. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks. If you believe the information on this forum as fact, you are going to be really disappointed in any decisions that you make from that information. There is more false information on here than factual. Go and talk to guys that actually work for the company, not flight sim pilots that pretend to fly real airplanes. There is no guarantee that any current regional airline will be in business in 5 years. In fact, several will likely fall in the next 10 years. The best airline today might be the worst one in 2 years. Base your decision on what is best for you now and for your future. Flow's are a gimmick that may continue, or may end in the near future, and that is true at all regionals, not just Envoy. |
Originally Posted by CLT Guy
(Post 1874146)
Flow's are a gimmick that may continue, or may end in the near future, and that is true at all regionals, not just Envoy.
See that's the problem with being a PSA cheerleader. Eventually you are backed into a corner and begin speaking out both sides of your mouth. I know it's tough to be at PSA and looking at 20 years before getting the privilege to interview (not flow) at AA. If anything, THAT is a gimmick. Meanwhile Envoy is sending 30 pilots a month to American Airlines with NO interview. Just flowing like a base transfer. Now I'm sure you are a relatively smart guy. I'm also sure you have a calculator. If Envoy is at 1200 to 1500 pilots, at 30/month going to AA how long will it take to go from Envoy new hire to AA new hire? Keep in mind 30 is the minimum that Envoy has to send per month. Gimmick? That is one hell of a nice gimmick...especially when you go from an E-175 to a 767 in 5 years or less. PSA isn't a bad place to be if your only goal for the next 20 years is to be a line holding Captain on an RJ flying between Charlotte and Knoxville. Sure, go to PSA and live that life to it's fullist. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1874161)
If flows are a gimmick then why are all you PSA sallys desperately trying to get one? Why is your recruiter getting up and begging the CEO of AA for an Envoy style flow? Because it's a gimmick? Get real.
See that's the problem with being a PSA cheerleader. Eventually you are backed into a corner and begin speaking out both sides of your mouth. I know it's tough to be at PSA and looking at a 20 years before getting the privilege to interview (not flow) at AA. If anything, THAT is a gimmick. Meanwhile Envoy is sending 30 pilots a month to American Airlines with NO interview. Just flowing like a base transfer. Now I'm sure you are a relatively smart guy. I'm also sure you have a calculator. If Envoy is at 1200 to 1500 pilots, at 30/month going to AA how long will it take to go from Envoy new hire to AA new hire? Keep in mind 30 is the minimum that Envoy has to send per month. Gimmick? That is one hell of a nice gimmick...especially when you go from an E-175 to a 767 in 5 years. It is a gimmick. A real solution would be a seniority number or everything larger than 50 seats at mainline. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1874161)
If flows are a gimmick then why are all you PSA sallys desperately trying to get one? Why is your recruiter getting up and begging the CEO of AA for an Envoy style flow? Because it's a gimmick? Get real.
See that's the problem with being a PSA cheerleader. Eventually you are backed into a corner and begin speaking out both sides of your mouth. I know it's tough to be at PSA and looking at a 20 years before getting the privilege to interview (not flow) at AA. If anything, THAT is a gimmick. Meanwhile Envoy is sending 30 pilots a month to American Airlines with NO interview. Just flowing like a base transfer. Now I'm sure you are a relatively smart guy. I'm also sure you have a calculator. If Envoy is at 1200 to 1500 pilots, at 30/month going to AA how long will it take to go from Envoy new hire to AA new hire? Keep in mind 30 is the minimum that Envoy has to send per month. Gimmick? That is one hell of a nice gimmick...especially when you go from an E-175 to a 767 in 5 years or less. PSA isn't a bad place to be if your only goal for the next 20 years is to be a line holding Captain on an RJ flying between Charlotte and Knoxville. Sure, go to PSA and live that life to it's fullist. |
It's not a perfect world. Some things work for some and they don't for others. Can we not argue over what's better and which regional is better. As long as there's regional industry with greedy major CEOs this regional b.s. Ain't gonna end. Who accepted concessions what not. At the end it doesn't matter. Get the flight time and get out. That's what I'm going to do. We are all selfish in different ways based on what we believe to be "right" or favorable to them.
I just wanted some info from people who know more about different companies so I can make choice based on what's best for me. |
Originally Posted by CLT Guy
(Post 1874169)
Oh, and once the 824 are gone, if Envoy says that they have staffing problems, the guaranteed "flow" that you are talking about will be gone overnight. If there are only 1200 pilots, there is no way that any airline could survive with more than 25% of their pilots leaving every year. There is no way that they could keep check airmen and senior captains. It is simply unsustainable. Break out that calculator and try that one.
You are speculating/hoping that AA reverses their entire long-term plan for Envoy and dismantles everything they have been building just to make yourself feel better. Sorry to tell you...this pain you are feeling will get worse before it gets better. Just wait until very soon when most of your Junior PSA pilots begin jumping ship over to Envoy. Don't think it will happen? Think you are immune? Think you are smarter than the managers of this multi-billion dollar company known as American Airlines? Ok then. The next 18 months will be a nice learning lesson for you. *Oh, and nothing in our contract-including our flow-can just "be gone overnight". See, that's the problem with contracts. They are binding. And if not, there is an arbitration process and the company has to make up for it. That is how the original Eagle got the original flow to AA before flow was ever a thing. You still have much to learn, little man. Good luck over at PSA. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1874173)
You are speculating/hoping that AA reverses their entire long-term plan for Envoy and dismantles everything they have been building just to make yourself feel better. |
Originally Posted by spikemath
(Post 1874073)
Envoy already employs upwards of 2000 pilots, any idea of how many current pilots will leave and how many total pilots they intend to employ after the new jets start arriving?
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The plan for envoy is ~1500 total pilots and 1200 active. That comes from the big 6.
Currently there are less than 300 "lifers" on the list and that decreases to around 200 in the next few years. FXE CFI: the NYC base is closing. |
Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874142)
That's exactly what I am thinking right now. I wanted to go to envoy before MEC confirmed but then ppl saying flow would take over 10yearz and envoy has long reserve (given the current trend I think it's ok to consider it without offending senior pilots who have been in reserve for years) made me reconsider. hence PSA.
UNTIL I read a resent article about PSA morale is down/AA internal meeting video saying that the flow will be reduced to 5 years soon (for me that'd be about 6.5yr flow I think) and PSA contract prevents their pilots to apply at AA Now back to Envoy Seems like while the company is becoming small to its "optimal" size. Some consider it as the company fm going down. Do you know much about DFW and ny base? Reserve time. Which planes etc. I'll be commuting from KFLL. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 1874225)
The plan for envoy is ~1500 total pilots and 1200 active. That comes from the big 6.
Currently there are less than 300 "lifers" on the list and that decreases to around 200 in the next few years. FXE CFI: the NYC base is closing. |
Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874130)
PSA is actually my top choice but in the long run as envoys flow speeds up, it might be a better choice with career opportunities. I would choose AA in 5 years over almost no reserve and quick upgrade at PSA.
Only if i could rely on 5yr rumor.... It does seem ridiculous that pretty soon the lifers at Eagle will be flying the same type aircraft as AA and for the same company and have to take a pay cut to switch unions. |
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
(Post 1874256)
Me to dude, and I am already at PSA. I wanted to go to Eagle way before this giant sh!t show. 1500 pilots, 1200 revolving jobs and 360 a year flow means 3 years and 4 months Indoc to Indoc. Not too bad, hardly seems believable. I would however think that if your were to ask anybody that has been in this business more than 10 years they would say don't plan on it. I do think that since AA now operates the 190 and Eagle will operate the 170's that there may be some sort of new hybrid connection between the two companies something were not seeing right now.
It does seem ridiculous that pretty soon the lifers at Eagle will be flying the same type aircraft as AA and for the same company and have to take a pay cut to switch unions. That is exactly what I don't understand. If there is a flow contract which is being exercised right now, is there a time limit? Why don't count on it if on contract and the flow is regardless how little pilots envoy can attract right now, going to continue? Or the flow contract is till this nov and the new 30/mo starting this nov is not in the contract? Or am I missing something? |
Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874259)
That is exactly what I don't understand. If there is a flow contract which is being exercised right now, is there a time limit? Why don't count on it if on contract and the flow is regardless how little pilots envoy can attract right now, going to continue? Or the flow contract is till this nov and the new 30/mo starting this nov is not in the contract? Or am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
(Post 1874263)
30 a month starts when the first 175 shows up(November). That extends through the "824" pilot group. Then, the next group are the "protected pilots", or everyone above the 824 and on property at contract DOS. They go at 35% of classes until the last 175 shows up, and then it goes to 50%. Finally, any new hire, hired Jan 2015 or later, goes at 25%. Basically, envoys flow gets smaller and smaller over time. That leaves room for places like PSA to get bigger, in time(not now!)
I'm having hard time understanding how those %s actually work. But sounds like it will not be 30/month for the next 5 years continuously. It will get smaller and smaller so new hires now will prolly looking at 7-10yr flow? |
Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874265)
I'm having hard time understanding how those %s actually work. But sounds like it will not be 30/month for the next 5 years continuously. It will get smaller and smaller so new hires now will prolly looking at 7-10yr flow?
It will drop to 14 year guys by this summer, but those guys waited 10 years to upgrade to Captain here at envoy air, inc, formerly known as American Eagle, formerly known as Command, Simmons, Executive, and Wings West. |
Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874259)
That is exactly what I don't understand. If there is a flow contract which is being exercised right now, is there a time limit? Why don't count on it if on contract and the flow is regardless how little pilots envoy can attract right now, going to continue? Or the flow contract is till this nov and the new 30/mo starting this nov is not in the contract? Or am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
(Post 1874267)
Exactly. If no economical bumps, airline mergers(Delta and Alaska? AA and jetBlue?), 9-11s, etc. When, in the last 4-5 decades, has none of these things happened? Flows are for suckers. Like I said, facts are facts, and the guys going over today have been waiting 16 years for a "3 year flow".
That makes sense So to sunup to be competitive outside of flow, maybe go for a regional with a quick upgrade then go to atlas or some sort until eligible to apply as a street hire at AA or other legacy |
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
(Post 1874269)
I am not a good source but, I think AMR tried to get rid of all the flow in BK with the rest of the contract. A judge somewhere slammed a hammer down and said bull$hit you promised Eagles a flow. It happened to be 824 people that were still there when the original deal was cut. So everybody was thrilled the next 824 guys AA hired would be from Eagle, captain jobs would turnover and life would be good. Some where BuzzKillington came out and read the fine print that they could be held which of course happened. The rest of the "flow" is on the contract but since the first round took a court order its assumed that AA will renege somehow.
Recently, the company and the union could not come to an agreement on reserve rules, so the company ceased "ALL" negotiations and has unilaterally installed new reserve rules in complete violation of anything our contract stands for. Do you really think they won't violate the flow language too? These are evil people and working for them SUCKS. |
Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE
(Post 1874259)
Why don't count on it if on contract and the flow is regardless how little pilots envoy can attract right now, going to continue?
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
(Post 1874273)
A little off on the cause, but generally you've got the right conclusion: it did take a judge to force the flow and we do believe they will just renege on the rest at will.
Recently, the company and the union could not come to an agreement on reserve rules, so the company ceased "ALL" negotiations and has unilaterally installed new reserve rules in complete violation of anything our contract stands for. Do you really think they won't violate the flow language too? These are evil people and working for them SUCKS. The bottom line is that envoy has nothing of value to offer prospective employees despite whatever lies certain recruiters are distributing. Management has no need to make it attractive; they're trying to shrink it. So why would new hires who will have to commute or relocate regardless want to come here? Flow through, as has been discussed, is highly speculative in nature, so if that's the only draw, it's not a good decision. Keep in mind, it is the recruiters' job to get people on property, no matter what. As line pilots, we really don't care one way or the other about their hiring goals or whether you come here or not. We're just bluntly broadcasting the known facts. Prospective new hires: whom do you think is a better source of info? |
Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
(Post 1874267)
It will drop to 14 year guys by this summer, but those guys waited 10 years to upgrade to Captain here at envoy air, inc, formerly known as American Eagle, formerly known as Command, Simmons, Executive, and Wings West.
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Originally Posted by CLT Guy
(Post 1874163)
I am not in a corner. It is a gimmick. It will work for some people, but it is not a solution to the problem. Do you think that a flow makes all of the abuse that regional pilots have been getting for years makes it worth it?
It is a gimmick. A real solution would be a seniority number or everything larger than 50 seats at mainline. Bet'n on the flow? Look out below! |
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