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Oh and obligatory "concessions in time of record profits" comment
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Originally Posted by Stringfellow
(Post 1789017)
We owe every PSA guy an apology. Furthermore, our MEC should be ashamed and stop using this "in unity" bull because our UNION just threw future alpa pilots under the bus. At least the previous yes voters maintained their course of illogic, but the rest who voted no before and then turned on a deal that wasn't really any different except for a small bribe, are guilty of pure hypocrisy. ALPA is a sad joke that asks us to help deny NAI out of one face, and then out of the other face strong-arms and applauds their own union members into not only further concessions, but also the C scale under which future union pilots will have to dwell. So, enjoy bribes while they last, but as soon as the company starts violating this TA like the bankruptcy contract, please refrain from whining any further. I hope the rest of us go fly for NAI just to give you "in unity" types a taste of your own medicine. Please go choke on what little is left of your humility as men, aviators, and so-called union brothers. SHAME
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Good lord, look at what the future AA pilot group is going to look like consisting of mainly Envoy, PSA and PDT pilots all who took some questionable deals and all seem to generally dislike each other...
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Originally Posted by SUX4U
(Post 1789043)
Good lord, look at what the future AA pilot group is going to look like consisting of mainly Envoy, PSA and PDT pilots all who took some questionable deals and all seem to generally dislike each other...
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Originally Posted by SUX4U
(Post 1789043)
Good lord, look at what the future AA pilot group is going to look like consisting of mainly Envoy, PSA and PDT pilots all who took some questionable deals and all seem to generally dislike each other...
The difference is that some of us will be unemployed if we do anything wrong. Others, not. |
Envoy didn't vote in concessions to grab aircraft slated for another airline, that was PSA. Envoy voted in concessions for aircraft that was always slated for them, big difference. Sad day indeed because this is the straw that broke the camels back and the camel is the future career as a successful airline pilot. This industry is pathetic.
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The most ironic thing about all of this is (besides all of the Envoy chest thumpers) is that Delta created this whole 12/4 mess and is now having to give out $30k to keep their cheap wholly owned airline staffed while AA now has all three wholly owns on the 12/4 scale that will give them millions of savings compared to Delta and United very year. So Delta basically created an opportunity for AA to have a massive regional cost advantage over them.......interesting.
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Originally Posted by Dunkin
(Post 1789055)
The most ironic thing about all of this is (besides all of the Envoy chest thumpers) is that Delta created this whole 12/4 mess and is now having to give out $30k to keep their cheap wholly owned airline staffed while AA now has all three wholly owns on the 12/4 scale that will give them millions of savings compared to Delta and United very year. So Delta basically created an opportunity for AA to have a massive regional cost advantage over them.......interesting.
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Originally Posted by PCLCREW
(Post 1789026)
You idiots calling each other scabs should learn what scab means. Neither PSA or Eagle are scabs.
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Originally Posted by Nantonaku
(Post 1789059)
It seems like a no win situation. If it didn't pass Envoy's future was in jeopardy, now that it did pass the future is still going to be a tough one. If you can't get new pilots in the door (which is hard to do with a sub-par contract) then you don't flow pilots to AA and in the end you eventually shut down. Does the agreement have anything that would attract a new hire?
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Originally Posted by wiz5422
(Post 1789052)
Envoy didn't vote in concessions to grab aircraft slated for another airline, that was PSA. Envoy voted in concessions for aircraft that was always slated for them, big difference.
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Originally Posted by NewPil0t
(Post 1789050)
Already looking forward to indoc class and training. It'll be just like High School, but some will have less hair.
The difference is that some of us will be unemployed if we do anything wrong. Others, not. What a mess. Best of luck guys. I feel for everyone that had to be put in the position of shut down or vote it in. Easy for those not in that position to criticize. |
Well that was easy ~ Doug Parker
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All it took was a little bride, to crap on those who you will be leaving behind.
"I GOT MINE!!!" How's that for ALPA unity? |
This might seem like a new reality to some but the truth is this is, was, and always will be what the fee for departure sector is all about. Lower your costs more than the competition and you'll grow, become too expensive and you'll fail.
Don't blame the pilots, blame the industry. |
At least we didn't take $$ to get *******ed by the man with our deal. You guys got bought like hoes. Now give us more 145s so you can staff your flying brothels. Hypocrites.
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We would a agree that PSA was the first to fall. What would today look like if PSA held their ground?.... Don't say they had to because Mesa, PDT, or someone else would of voted it in, that is a weak excuse. I believe envoy voted yes this time because they know everyone else has now proven that they will undercut you and new hires only care about one thing, upgrade. No one stood with us except express jet and RAH and they aren't wholly owned and therefore in a different situation. Stop your all bickering and hope to God scope doesn't get relaxed anytime soon.
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The Eagle/Envoy Pilots are NOT scabs, but dealt the industry a huge setback. Unfortunately, they did the correct thing by voting down a ridiculous TA months ago and were hammered by AAG because of it. I feel horrible for the situation that you all (Eagle/Envoy) were put into. The race to the bottom continues!!! Another victory for Management!
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Envoy pilots did everything they could to hold the line short of shutting down. It might have worked too if they hadn't been undercut. But the second they were, management won. Sadly it sets an awful precedent for the future.
But again, Envoy pilots stood up for the regional industry repeatedly. For you, me, and every other guy here. You couldn't expect them to fall on the sword all the way to the unemployment line once it became evident others were more than happy to take their flying and their efforts were for naught. The most definitive whipsaw battle to date was just lost, but don't blame Envoy pilots. |
Enseavor was the first to accept the 12/4 pay caps followed then by PSA and Envoy. The precedent had already been set.
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...and on the very same day Envoy agrees to a concessionary contract, Parker gives everyone else pay raises! That's a true story.
"American Airlines Inc. employees will get 4 percent across-the-board pay raises, including unionized employees if their union has a joint contract covering both American and US Airways employees. At the same time, American announced that it is sending its pilot contract to binding arbitration after more than a month of negotiations with the Allied Pilots Association. Included in the group getting the 4 percent raise are American’s flight attendants, who will get that increase on top of the higher wages included in a joint contract finalized last week." Terry Maxon | Dallas Morning News |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1789123)
Enseavor was the first to accept the 12/4 pay caps followed then by PSA and Envoy. The precedent had already been set.
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Originally Posted by astec
(Post 1788933)
But it's ok.. Their hands were tied they had to this or they would be shut down right?
The glass slipper has many owners apparently |
Originally Posted by gojo
(Post 1789137)
Careful how you use the word "accept". Pinnacle/Endeavor had little choice in the matter since it was done in bankruptcy. Now PSA and Eagle/Envoy did accept it
Proposal. Then PDT didn't sign the no whipsaw deal and they voted yes after the pilot group voted yes. TSA and Compass salivating over our 145s and the 40 last 175. Now we voted in the deal trying to preserve as much as we have standing for ourselves and forgetting about the industry. |
Why does everybody from the outside assume it's concessionary before even seeing the TA? Can somebody post up the pay scale and work rules voted in?
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1789143)
We tried to stad for the industry...PSA voted after or MEC rejected the original
Proposal. Then PDT didn't sign the no whipsaw deal and they voted yes after the pilot group voted yes. TSA and Compass salivating over our 145s and the 40 last 175. Now we voted in the deal trying to preserve as much as we have standing for ourselves and forgetting about the industry. |
Originally Posted by deltajuliet
(Post 1789116)
.......... You couldn't expect them (Envoy) to fall on the sword all the way to the unemployment line once it became evident others were more than happy to take their flying and their efforts were for naught.
This is ALPA National's fault. There is/was no unity. Especially when there's a $12,500 bribe waitin' for ya. |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1789138)
Are you butt hurt? You where part of envoy and left to PSA. It's great to see every PSA pilot here bashing. :)
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Why blame PSA? Remember they turned down Parker once also. Remember Parker came to them offering shiny 900's for there blended rate. They told Parker to shove it. Parker just got on the phone with Mesa and they took them 900's without a fight. Is that PSA's fault? Mesa sure didn't stand up at the time for PSA or the industry.
Then when it came time to be offered another round of 900's PSA knew if they voted it down then they'd go to someone else. Now Envoy is in the same boat knowing if you had turned it down the 175's had just gone to another carrier!! So you are no better then PSA or PDT. Continue to blame PSA just makes you look even more sad then voting the worse of the TA's in. I think you owe PSA an apology for all the mouthing off at them. You voted "yes" now just walk away with your tail between your legs and enjoy the flow and the shiny 175's. It will all be forgotten soon! Well except by the contract carriers like AirWisconsin, Republic, and few other carriers. |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1789143)
We tried to stad for the industry...PSA voted after or MEC rejected the original
Proposal. Then PDT didn't sign the no whipsaw deal and they voted yes after the pilot group voted yes. TSA and Compass salivating over our 145s and the 40 last 175. Now we voted in the deal trying to preserve as much as we have standing for ourselves and forgetting about the industry. |
50 =100 tak off tak off
Glad I'm gone |
You cannot compare Envoy to PSA... And anyone who is doing so needs to get a grip. It is unfortunate that Envoy ended up in this crappy position. They were put there because they stood up for the industry, and then got kicked in the nuts by their peers and management. I can support both sides of this vote, given the circumstances and alternatives. The regional game sucks.
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My perspective
I am glad for those Envoy drivers who took the high road and kept things professional. I am a 39% PSA driver and I have watched you situation unfold. You did what was need to keep food on the table and shoes on the kids feet. I apologize for those that have to bend reality and facts, just to make them feel better about themselves. This is the reality we live in. If this doesn't work for you, move on and stop showing your immaturity. A few both here at PSA and Envoy need to take the road less traveled. The high one. Signed, 39%
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I'll do it. Envoy voted what was best for them today because if they didn't, someone else would. This is provenby PSAs actions last year. I have been a staunch hater of PSA, and while I still believe they helped force us into this, I can no longer blame them because we just did the same thing. My Jumpseat war with you is over and I promise to wait until you land to yell scab from now on.
On the bright side, this should relax the pilfering of our pilot group by PSA, Mesa, and TrannyStates. |
No one seeing the obvious? The turd has been polished to a mirror sheen, ripe for sale.
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Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom
(Post 1789192)
No one seeing the obvious? The turd has been polished to a mirror sheen, ripe for sale.
[filler] |
Serious question here: Is there anything in the new TA that allows Envoy to (legally) pay hiring bonuses? There's no way ANY union should allow that! (outside of a bankruptcy contract)
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Originally Posted by Slick111
(Post 1789208)
Serious question here: Is there anything in the new TA that allows Envoy to (legally) pay hiring bonuses? There's no way ANY union should allow that! (outside of a bankruptcy contract)
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Originally Posted by Slick111
(Post 1789208)
Serious question here: Is there anything in the new TA that allows Envoy to (legally) pay hiring bonuses? There's no way ANY union should allow that! (outside of a bankruptcy contract)
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Please don't associate Compass with wanting these airplanes, we are content with what we have knowing we didn't take a single concession to take on any additional frames. I'm happy the Envoy peeps have some sort of stability and promised outcome, lots of good people over there, it sucks it had to go down like this.
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