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Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1907950)
I wish you the best of luck, but you are acting like you just discovered oil on the surface of the moon.
You are not charting unknown waters here. Everybody networks. Everybody attends job fairs. Everybody waits 3 hours in line for a 5 minute handshake with a mainline recruiter. Everybody collects stacks of recommendation letters. None of this is new, and none of it gets you any closer to a mainline job. Sure, it beats doing nothing. But it's akin to spinning your car's wheels in the mud. The only way to truly increase your chances is if you are part of the friends and family plan. Assuming you don't have any military flight time. Other than that, you are just one out of thousands. And those other thousands are also networking and getting their face out there. Too many of us think we are doing something nobody else is doing. That is a residual effect of our jobs. We sit in the cockpit with either a Captain or an FO but never work directly with another person who is our direct peer. So you fly around thunderstorms perfectly, make smooth landings, great radio calls, etc....and after a while you begin to get it in your head you are the best at what you do and nobody else can do it as well. You don't have another FO sitting next to you doing the same job for you to compare with. Or another Captain if that is your position. That spills over into other areas of life. So you network and do a bunch legwork to get that mainline interview. You begin to think you are the only one doing it. You get your letters together and polish your resume and think nobody is doing it as well as you are. Most pilots will spend years trying their best to get out of the Regionals...PIC or no PIC. An eventual job with an LCC like Frontier will be more likely to happen than United or Delta. And even then that will take a good 5 years of Regional flying to materialize. Some may get lucky, sure. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean that we should all count on a large heaping of luck to move on. If you have the opportunity to work for an airline that has a true flow, and that flow is WORKING as advertised or better....that would be a better choice than going to work for an independent Regional with no flow and rolling the dice. On one hand you guys all claim the Envoy flow is just a back-up plan and something "nice to have in your back pocket" if the traditional methods of advancement in the industry don't pan out and then when a pilot does exactly that, i.e., successfully go to where THEY may want to, you belittle that as a foolish move because it isn't to where YOU think they should go (to Envoy and then AA via a supposedly certain flow-through) and THAT is "rolling the dice" ? Good lord, we've pole-vaulted into the surreal. I guess when a tenacious salesmen grabs on, he doesn't let go............ |
Originally Posted by LeadFoot
(Post 1908023)
The flow through contract sounds great, but why is Envoy struggling to attract more pilots than other regional airlines? Yes, there's a pilot shortage, but other regional airlines are filling their new hire classes while Envoy gets less than 30 a month. Also, why is Envoy closing bases everywhere (down to only DFW and ORD)? For the airline to be more appealing to potential new hires it has to prove that it can keep its domiciles open and reassure everyone that it won't get any worse. Not being negative here, just honestly curious.
It's FAR less then that. The FACTS are that regardless of the present sales letters and song-and-dance routines of a handful of snake-oil hucksters here, Envoy WILL shrink. Wilsons own numbers demonstrate that in the very letter that included his projections. AAG has made ZERO additional long-term commitments to Envoy's fleet renewal since the 40 E-175's and Envoy is bringing in a fraction of the pilots needed to support a steady, long-term flow that will benefit any pilot hired today or later. The foundations of all these projections and claims simply isn't there and until they are, it's all smoke and mirrors by a handful who themselves are the ones with ulterior motives and hidden agendas. |
Originally Posted by RyanP
(Post 1908030)
How many other regionals have as many pilots per month going to a "LEGACY" carrier as Eagle does (with our Flow + limited outside Legacy attrition)??
Answer = 0 We are putting more pilots at Legacy carriers than anyone else right now. Vast majority being AA. You can't argue with that. It's a fact. So far, those components don't exist and THAT is FACT. Like your fellow sales associate said, "the world changes" and thus what happens "right now" may not be able to happen in the future. 6 years is a LIFETIME in this business in regards to changing worlds and equating what is happening at Envoy right now to the remainder of the arbitrational awarded "824" pilots is NO GUARANTEE of ANYTHING for those subject to a simple contractual agreement like the Protected Pilots Agreement (PPA) months or years down the road. Mix that in conjunction that Envoy will be morphing drastically into a different feed provider due to significant contraction and you can't even guarantee Envoy will exist in 6 years in present form, let alone smoothly flowing a new-hire of today. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1908040)
30/month ?
It's FAR less then that. The FACTS are that regardless of the present sales letters and song-and-dance routines of a handful of snake-oil hucksters here, Envoy WILL shrink. Wilsons own numbers demonstrate that in the very letter that included his projections. AAG has made ZERO additional long-term commitments to Envoy's fleet renewal since the 40 E-175's and Envoy is bringing in a fraction of the pilots needed to support a steady, long-term flow that will benefit any pilot hired today or later. The foundations of all these projections and claims simply isn't there and until they are, it's all smoke and mirrors by a handful who themselves are the ones with ulterior motives and hidden agendas. |
Originally Posted by LeadFoot
(Post 1908053)
That's another thing that I'm trying to understand. The non-wholly owned airlines combined do more flying for American Airlines than PSA, Piedmont, and Envoy. With the projections of retirements through 2025, AAG would not just have to hire from the three WO's. Am I right in saying that they may have to hire from elsewhere as well? And not everyone from the regionals wants to go to AAG; in fact many would go to United, Delta, UPS, FedEx, JB, etc...
You're the CEO of an airline in need of pilots over the next decade. Which regional airlines are you going to attempt to drain of their pilots? Yours or someone elses? |
Originally Posted by LeadFoot
(Post 1908053)
That's another thing that I'm trying to understand. The non-wholly owned airlines combined do more flying for American Airlines than PSA, Piedmont, and Envoy. With the projections of retirements through 2025, AAG would not just have to hire from the three WO's. Am I right in saying that they may have to hire from elsewhere as well? And not everyone from the regionals wants to go to AAG; in fact many would go to United, Delta, UPS, FedEx, JB, etc...
Another aspect to consider is what those who are NOT AA wholly-owned regionals do and that's cover market share for AA that the wholly-owneds cannot. If they disappear, who flies that feed ? Someone has to and the fact is, that the WO's don't now and won't in the future have those pilots. I think it's obvious all that is occurring now is the next phase of the contraction of the regionals and that's "consolidation". First, they will continue to kick the can by trying to do more with less and shuffling their critical commodity (pilots) around a bit. Once that tack is exhausted, the next phase means carrier consolidation, but ultimately the regional industry will shrink to perhaps half its former size, but with a majority of 64-76 aircraft. If and when that becomes threatened, then actual consolidation within the mainline carrier itself is likely the final solution with the entry level position a Group 1 type job at the mainline flying the smaller jets. Ultimately, most present regional pilots will find themselves at a particular legacy through various phases of consolidation and then acquisition. Running after the first carrot in the process in the long-run like the Envoy/Piedmont flows is a pre-mature knee-jerk reaction at this juncture. I think as the next 18 months goes on, a better picture will emerge and chasing quick upgrades or projected flows now is unadvisable, but hey........that's simply my opinion. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1908062)
My advice to you is to listen to eaglefly's very rational advice. To me, the puzzle is so simple, they are not going to destroy their own feed by draining their own wholly owned airlines of all their pilots. The flow works in AA's best interest right now because they need to shrink Envoy to 45 airplanes (today's number which can change). Once they are shrunk to whatever size they deem appropriate, thats the end of the flow.
You're the CEO of an airline in need of pilots over the next decade. Which regional airlines are you going to attempt to drain of their pilots? Yours or someone elses? There will be thousands of retirements out there in the next few years and Envoy will not be the only one supplying American or others with the necessary pilots. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1907848)
Have you applied to United and Delta? How has that worked out for you so far? You claim Jr CAs are moving to better places....where? Spirit? JetBlue? That may be better than the Regionals...but it's not mainline. And even then, it's difficult to get on with those airlines.
There are 10,000+ pilots applying to the 3 majors left in the United States. Many of those 10,000+ are already working for an LCC, have more PIC time than most Regional pilots have Total Time...and an Airbus type rating to boot. You think that you and every other wide eyed Regional pilot will some how magically skip ahead of all of them? How? Because you "really, really want the job!"? We can be cynical about the flow until we turn blue in the face. And that is fine. Flow was never a tool of any kind in the past. The old AA back in the 90s and early 2000s didn't care about flow nor did they want it. They used it as a way to protect their pilots from furlough (letter 3) and it was never intended to actually flow any significant amount of pilots from Eagle. That was then. This is now. To quote the infamous Scott Kirby: The world has changed. AA still prefers military pilots but they don't have an aversion to Regional pilots the way they did back in the 90s. The new AA (ex-US Airways) understands what a flow can mean for them going forward. And they have gone "all in" so to speak with Envoy and to a lesser extend Piedmont. Only because Piedmont is smaller. You guys who keep dismissing the flow based on how it worked or didn't work 20 years ago are committing a huge fallacy. The worse thing a professional can do in any industry is be stuck in the past and not adapt to the changing environment around them. Case and point: Still thinking that the majors will come barrel rolling through your bedroom wall when you hit the magical "1,000 hours of PIC time!".... it doesn't work that way. It never has and even less so today. Living with that in your head will only mean you are at the back of the line as your peers flow up to mainline with no interview. Take it or leave it. People can listen to trolls like eaglefly who have ulterior motives or they can be smart about what Regional they choose to fly for. Choosing any Regional because of quickie upgrade times is a very bad move. Going to work for Mesa or Republic is a very bad move. This is spot on. My personal opinion is that you're going to see envoy become the place to be in the very near future. Is it a perfect place now? No, far from it. After all, it's still a regional that is going through pains associated with the closing of bases, lost airplanes, and temporary stagnation. But if your goal is to fly for one of the big 3, then this is the best option with the best odds. As much as it pains some people on here to see, AAG has a huge investment in the future of envoy. There are the obvious trolls who spew false numbers, absolute worse case scenarios, and outright lies because the failure of envoy is best for whatever position they may be in. Sad but true and it becomes a potential applicants' responsibility to sift through the BS when browsing this site for info. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1908062)
The flow works in AA's best interest right now because they need to shrink Envoy to 45 airplanes (today's number which can change). Once they are shrunk to whatever size they deem appropriate, thats the end of the flow.
You're the CEO of an airline in need of pilots over the next decade. Which regional airlines are you going to attempt to drain of their pilots? Yours or someone elses? "That's the end of the flow." What are you a 25 year old lawyer now? You clearly have no clue or have no problem spewing lies about our flow thru agreements or our flow through arbitrated awards. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1908062)
My advice to you is to listen to eaglefly's very rational advice. To me, the puzzle is so simple, they are not going to destroy their own feed by draining their own wholly owned airlines of all their pilots. The flow works in AA's best interest right now because they need to shrink Envoy to 45 airplanes (today's number which can change). Once they are shrunk to whatever size they deem appropriate, thats the end of the flow.
You're the CEO of an airline in need of pilots over the next decade. Which regional airlines are you going to attempt to drain of their pilots? Yours or someone elses? If I were an entry-level prospective pilot, I'd make my choice of a regional as one based more on tangible factors then hypothetical ones and if I were already at a given regional (at least one that flies RJ's for a legacy), I'd stay put and let the industry evolve more to get a better handle of what is a good next move, if any. |
Originally Posted by sublime259
(Post 1908082)
This is spot on. My personal opinion is that you're going to see envoy become the place to be in the very near future. Is it a perfect place now? No, far from it. After all, it's still a regional that is going through pains associated with the closing of bases, lost airplanes, and temporary stagnation. But if your goal is to fly for one of the big 3, then this is the best option with the best odds. As much as it pains some people on here to see, AAG has a huge investment in the future of envoy.
There are the obvious trolls who spew false numbers, absolute worse case scenarios, and outright lies because the failure of envoy is best for whatever position they may be in. Sad but true and it becomes a potential applicants' responsibility to sift through the BS when browsing this site for info. Once more unto the breach, dear friends...........:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by sublime259
(Post 1908087)
Lies. Complete lies. I'm not sure where you came up with this 45 number? We have 40 orders for 175's, 90 options for 175's, and I believe 68 145's which are staying here.
"That's the end of the flow." What are you a 25 year old lawyer now? You clearly have no clue or have no problem spewing lies about our flow thru agreements or our flow through arbitrated awards. I'm sorry. |
I guess I should add that eaglefly has been blocked for a few days now due to his incessant trolling and the mods refusal to do anything about it.
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[/QUOTE] If I were an entry-level prospective pilot, I'd make my choice of a regional as one based more on tangible factors then hypothetical ones and if I were already at a given regional (at least one that flies RJ's for a legacy), I'd stay put and let the industry evolve more to get a better handle of what is a good next move, if any.[/QUOTE]
Which airlines might those be? They're all struggling right now in some form. |
Don't be sorry, you are not going to see the flyingiat mainline either.
I remember an e135/140 beating out scope a few years ago. Deliveries are timing. I would wait til 2017 and see. |
Originally Posted by sublime259
(Post 1908105)
I guess I should add that eaglefly has been blocked for a few days now due to his incessant trolling and the mods refusal to do anything about it.
This is not true. I can assure all here, I'm quite regular and ensure that by getting the necessary amount of fiber and staying hydrated. :o I do understand though that one of your hopeful strategies is to get me "silenced" as then you can continue your misrepresentations and sales pitches unimpeded as evidenced by your continued misapplication of "trolling" and now attacking the mods for not assisting you. Look, we definitely disagree and I have never made a post demanding you or any of your other cadre be silenced by others or silencing yourself. I do reserve the right for rebuttal to your claims though and isn't that what this forum is for ? If you read any number of threads, there is PLENTY of conflict and disagreement on various subjects and this subject is no different. In fact, if anyone is to be banned, it should be RJ pilot who is STILL attempting to out me just again this afternoon on the other Envoy thread (what are we up to now over the last year or so, 30 or more times ?) or those of you who engage in name-calling as sport. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1908052)
...the problem with your "fact" is that the most apt phrase in your post above is "right now". It seems to be a phrase you have difficulty including in the context of your sales pitches. For that to hold true in the future, AAG MUST commit to Envoy and Envoy MUST demonstrate it can hire AND RETAIN enough pilots to make that work.
So far, those components don't exist and THAT is FACT. Like your fellow sales associate said, "the world changes" and thus what happens "right now" may not be able to happen in the future. 6 years is a LIFETIME in this business in regards to changing worlds and equating what is happening at Envoy right now to the remainder of the arbitrational awarded "824" pilots is NO GUARANTEE of ANYTHING for those subject to a simple contractual agreement like the Protected Pilots Agreement (PPA) months or years down the road. Mix that in conjunction that Envoy will be morphing drastically into a different feed provider due to significant contraction and you can't even guarantee Envoy will exist in 6 years in present form, let alone smoothly flowing a new-hire of today. Nobody can predict the future in this industry, but right now we know the flow IS moving pilots every month + 4-5 or so going to Legacy carriers via direct hire per month. Then all other LCC/cargo/foreign/corporate attrition on top of that every month. We have the highest attrition in the industry. Yes some is lateral , mostly in the beginning of this year, but most now isn't. No signs it is stopping anytime soon either, flow could always slow temporarily due to any number of reasons (which will slow others getting hired from outside carriers as well), but it's not going to stop without a major incident or disaster. It's arbitrated awards, arbitrated agreements and contractual. Retirements are coming.. It is inevitable. Even if they did a worse case scenario and delay it again to age 67 or some crap. (Which would also slow everyone else at other carriers). So again.. How many other regionals have as many pilots per month going to a "LEGACY" carrier as Eagle does (with our Flow + outside Legacy attrition)?? Answer = 0 We are putting more pilots at Legacy carriers than anyone else right now and for the forseeable future. Vast majority being AA. You can't argue with that. It's still a fact. |
Originally Posted by RyanP
(Post 1908129)
The fact remains.. And I could even say over the past 5 years with confidence Eagle has supplied more LEGACY pilots than any other Regional. I don't know the exact number outside of the flow, nobody does.. but approximately 550-600 or so is a safe # to a Legacy carrier over the last 5 years. Nobody else can claim that. Not even close. Most of it being over the last 2 years.
Nobody can predict the future in this industry, but right now we know the flow IS moving pilots every month + 4-5 or so going to Legacy carriers via direct hire per month. Then all other LCC/cargo/foreign/corporate attrition on top of that every month. We have the highest attrition in the industry. Yes some is lateral , mostly in the beginning of this year, but most now isn't. No signs it is stopping anytime soon either, flow could always slow temporarily due to any number of reasons (which will slow others getting hired from outside carriers as well), but it's not going to stop without a major incident or disaster. It's arbitrated awards, arbitrated agreements and contractual. So again.. How many other regionals have as many pilots per month going to a "LEGACY" carrier as Eagle does (with our Flow + outside Legacy attrition)?? Answer = 0 We are putting more pilots at Legacy carriers than anyone else right now. Vast majority being AA. You can't argue with that. It's still a fact. No one can guarantee that, although some appear to be trying. I suppose we'll have to watch the show over the next 6-12 months and see how Envoy and its upgrade/flow projections morph. That's my advice to those not at Envoy and those who are and more junior wont likely pass up any offers to other legacies, LCC's or various other better jobs that pay $$$ and offer tangible things instead of hypotheticals. Hey, the 824 are likely in good shape (at least most of them and that includes Cujo and some of the other MEC guys), but perhaps that's all that matters to them. Personally, that's what I think. As for you or those subject to the PPA ? Well,..............good luck ! ....and I mean that. I hope it works out for you. |
Which airlines might those be? They're all struggling right now in some form. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1908135)
Will "today" transfer to those NOT in the "824", including most junior Envoy pilots and those not yet hired ?
No one can guarantee that, although some appear to be trying. I suppose we'll have to watch the show over the next 6-12 months and see how Envoy and its upgrade/flow projections morph. That's my advice to those not at Envoy and those who are and more junior wont likely pass up any offers to other legacies, LCC's or various other better jobs that pay $$$ and offer tangible things instead of hypotheticals. Hey, the 824 are likely in good shape (at least most of them and that includes Cujo and some of the other MEC guys), but perhaps that's all that matters to them. Personally, that's what I think. As for you or those subject to the PPA ? Well,..............good luck ! ....and I mean that. I hope it works out for you. |
Originally Posted by LeadFoot
(Post 1908023)
The flow through contract sounds great, but why is Envoy struggling to attract more pilots than other regional airlines? Yes, there's a pilot shortage, but other regional airlines are filling their new hire classes while Envoy gets less than 30 a month. Also, why is Envoy closing bases everywhere (down to only DFW and ORD)? For the airline to be more appealing to potential new hires it has to prove that it can keep its domiciles open and reassure everyone that it won't get any worse. Not being negative here, just honestly curious.
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Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1908296)
You are making a HUGE mistake listening to anything eaglefly says. If you ever want a real, straight answer to your question let me know.
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Originally Posted by Realtalk
(Post 1908299)
Hey don't get me wrong. I'm a envoy supporter but as someone who hass many close friends there, going there would be career suicide.
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Originally Posted by Realtalk
(Post 1908299)
Hey don't get me wrong. I'm a envoy supporter but as someone who hass many close friends there, going there would be career suicide.
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Originally Posted by Realtalk
(Post 1908299)
Hey don't get me wrong. I'm a envoy supporter but as someone who hass many close friends there, going there would be career suicide.
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Ok career suicide maybe harsh, we can reserve that column for great lakes
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Originally Posted by Realtalk
(Post 1908313)
Ok career suicide maybe harsh, we can reserve that column for great lakes
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Originally Posted by Realtalk
(Post 1908299)
Hey don't get me wrong. I'm a envoy supporter but as someone who hass many close friends there, going there would be career suicide.
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Originally Posted by Jersdawg
(Post 1908288)
So many words in your posts...you are obviously an intelligent individual and are familiar with the Internet. Therefore, you should realize that most posters will not take the time to read your wordy and blustery posts. If you want to be taken as anything more than sound and fury signifying nothing, state your point without being such a dramatist.
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Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1908296)
You are making a HUGE mistake listening to anything eaglefly says. If you ever want a real, straight answer to your question let me know.
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Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1908296)
You are making a HUGE mistake listening to anything eaglefly says. If you ever want a real, straight answer to your question let me know.
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Originally Posted by LeadFoot
(Post 1908482)
Career suicide is a strong word, that wouldn't be the case at Envoy.
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Originally Posted by Jersdawg
(Post 1908288)
So many words in your posts...you are obviously an intelligent individual and are familiar with the Internet. Therefore, you should realize that most posters will not take the time to read your wordy and blustery posts. If you want to be taken as anything more than sound and fury signifying nothing, state your point without being such a dramatist.
I figure any pilot who falls into that category is probably beyond hope anyway. The more astute and savvy pilots take a minute to read something worthwhile, while some may not. That's one of the beauties of life and this forum; choices. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1908296)
You are making a HUGE mistake listening to anything eaglefly says. If you ever want a real, straight answer to your question let me know.
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Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1908526)
Are you saying most pilots don't read books and are too stupid or scatter-brained to comprehend simple paragraphs ?
I figure any pilot who falls into that category is probably beyond hope anyway. The more astute and savvy pilots take a minute to read something worthwhile, while some may not. That's one of the beauties of life and this forum; choices. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1908483)
I read every last bit of it. When you have a track record of posting well thought out and coherent ideas, people tend to read a good writers post to the end.
Arf ! |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1908529)
Many of today's millennials seem to be plagued with ADD and ADHD.
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Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1908526)
The more astute and savvy pilots take a minute to read something worthwhile, while some may not. That's one of the beauties of life and this forum; choices.
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1908528)
I believe that to be true. Some possibly had not even been afflicted with those disorders, but were erroneously medicated as children anyway. In fact, while sitting in my doctor's office recently (annual check-up), I read a report on the over use of psycho-stimulants like Ritalin on children in the 1990's to the tune of something like 800%. I can't help but feel that many of todays pilots fell into that category and some have been psychologically altered as a result. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration and attention, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others. People with this disorder often believe they are of primary importance in everybody’s life or to anyone they meet. While this pattern of behavior may be appropriate for a king in 16th Century England, it is generally considered inappropriate for most ordinary people today. If you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation. To feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make yourself appear superior. Or you may feel depressed and moody because you fall short of perfection. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal and value yourself more than you value others. Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder: In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms: -Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) -Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) -Has a very strong sense of unreasonable expectations, of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations -Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes -Requires excessive admiration -Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others |
LOL'd. Guys he showed the exact same characteristics when he was at eagle flying the line.
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I was thinking the same thing. What makes it funny is everyone else recognizes the narcissism but him.
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