Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox

For once a junk thread has turned into a real conversation rather than the other way around.

Originally Posted by Skyvector

Hope you guys know you keep bumping a thread that was started by a FAKE account, by a person WHO DOES NOT work at Envoy and made up LIES himself in an attempt to stir the pot. If there were mods on this site this thread would have been locked a long time ago. But this is APC so...

Originally Posted by ag386

Long time lurker first time poster.

I follow these boards to keep up with the industry. Currently at Envoy and am looking to move upward to major or LCC.

Have to chime in as I can't take the lies being spread here anymore.
Let me say it. THERE IS NO 2.5 YEAR UPGRADE here! I was hired at Envoy in May of 2013 and according to the gouge on here, I should be in the left seat right? WRONG! I'm in the right seat ON RESERVE!

I'm getting close to holding a line but it may be a few months or more, I really don't know. But I sure as heck am not anywhere near holding a Capt slot. If you guys really want to know, the most junior Capt on our list is an October 2007 hire. Who hasn't even started upgrade training yet!

6 year flow? Yeah right. The current guys flowing were hired in July and August of 1999. That's right, 1999!!!

I've done an exhaustive analysis of our seniority list and I just don't see any way possible that we are going to get to a 2 1/2 year upgrade anytime in the next few years. There are over 700 FO's who are going to have to upgrade to make a 2.5 year upgrade possible.

So, where are the vacancy bids? We need to get started on this list of 700 plus FO's so we can get the 2.5 going right? Plus we are going to have to get new hires in to replace those flowing right? I know that we are still shrinking but we don't have too much shrinking left before we are "adequately staffed" for the aircraft on property and deliveries.

I'm just calling BS on this whole 2.5 year upgrade. I'm not even considering the flow right now it's so far out on the horizon. I come to APC to pick up scraps of info as our union gives us zippo. All I hear on the Envoy threads is RAH RAH RAH 2.5/6. I'm telling you. It ain't true. At least right now. I don't buy these BS "projections." You can "project" all you want but I want to see the rubber meet the road in terms of a clear fleet plan, clear flying allocation and most of all...VACANCY BIDS.

I am NOT lateraling to another regional. Sure, it sounds great at Compass right now but what about next year? I'm staying here and putting in apps and exploring all possible avenues. I'm looking at Part 91, Part 135, LCC, anything in addition to my legacy apps. If I get a call for anything a smidge better, I can tell you I'm out of here. The flow ain't happening anytime soon (read 6 years) for us bottom seniority list dwellers son. Realistically, yes, I might flow in 10 years from today. Who the heck knows really? Apparently there are so few pilots left, who the heck are they going to get to fly these regional tin cans?

Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck

Why don't you send this to management?

99% of people out there aren't dumb enough to buy this cr@p that Eagle is selling. The 1% that are deserve to get stuck there.

Originally Posted by daOldMan

The flow only continues until the airline can't stage all of the current flying. As soon as they can't get enough pilots, they will stop letting them go. They are not going to allow flow when flights are cancelling due to lack of staffing. This is common sense.

Now, here's the funny part. If the 700's don't leave Envoy, then Envoy needs more pilots. If they don't hire enough new pilots, the flow will stop sooner. So, the best thing for the flow at Envoy is for the 700's to leave property. But, are the Envoy pilots smart enough to figure this out? No! They are celebrating that the 700's are going to stay on property longer. They will still go to PSA, because it makes financial sense to have all of the RJ's at one property and the EMB's at another property (after PDT is merged with Envoy when the Trash8's are all gone).

This is a prime example of why pilots are pilots, and people with real business sense are in management.

Originally Posted by daOldMan

The flow only continues until the airline can't stage all of the current flying. As soon as they can't get enough pilots, they will stop letting them go. They are not going to allow flow when flights are cancelling due to lack of staffing. This is common sense.

Now, here's the funny part. If the 700's don't leave Envoy, then Envoy needs more pilots. If they don't hire enough new pilots, the flow will stop sooner. So, the best thing for the flow at Envoy is for the 700's to leave property. But, are the Envoy pilots smart enough to figure this out? No! They are celebrating that the 700's are going to stay on property longer. They will still go to PSA, because it makes financial sense to have all of the RJ's at one property and the EMB's at another property (after PDT is merged with Envoy when the Trash8's are all gone).

This is a prime example of why pilots are pilots, and people with real business sense are in management.

Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw

Given current staffing levels, keeping them longer is a good thing. Once staffing starts to get tight, by all means, ship them off. Until then, more hulls is better.

Should management stop the flow, they will be in violation of the CBA. They do have a tendency to disregard the contract, however, that would be a major grievance. Even though it would take years tied up in arbitration, it would prove quite costly both monetarily as well as dampen their ability to recruit new pilots. Another thing to remember is flow levels decrease over time. Eventually all 3 WO airlines flow agreements look roughly the same.