2% pay raise in Oct 2020
09-07-2020, 03:18 PM
#311
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by 2BEER
I do get some of the advantages to bearing the investment risk, similar to a 401k. The ability to control the investments, the portability (can’t be taken away in the event of company bankruptcy, etc) but I remain very, very skeptical.
First, we will not control the investments, neither will the union. The investments will still be controlled by the company.
Second, yes, it can be taken away the same as our current DB plan and dumped on the PBGC.
One sticking point is that the PBGC will only protect one plan. If we adopt this VB plan and freeze our current DB plan, one of the plans will not be protected.
09-07-2020, 04:09 PM
#312
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by pinseeker
First, we will not control the investments, neither will the union. The investments will still be controlled by the company.
Second, yes, it can be taken away the same as our current DB plan and dumped on the PBGC.
One sticking point is that the PBGC will only protect one plan. If we adopt this VB plan and freeze our current DB plan, one of the plans will not be protected.
Second, yes, it can be taken away the same as our current DB plan and dumped on the PBGC.
One sticking point is that the PBGC will only protect one plan. If we adopt this VB plan and freeze our current DB plan, one of the plans will not be protected.
09-07-2020, 07:09 PM
#313
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 56
Oh my - where to start...
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
09-07-2020, 07:27 PM
#315
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,193
Originally Posted by FastBurner
Oh my - where to start...
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
It's understandable that many pilots don't have the time or the expertise to research retirement plan documents, regulations and reports so thoroughly, but I'm hopeful when I see others do it with such vigor, attention to detail, honesty, fairness and objectivity.
The writing here is outstanding too. Re-read, re-post, share. Make this "book" a best seller!
In Unity,
DLax
09-07-2020, 07:54 PM
#316
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: BE-20, LR35
Posts: 266
Originally Posted by FastBurner
Oh my - where to start...
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
09-08-2020, 03:13 AM
#317
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: 777 F/O
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by FastBurner
Oh my - where to start...
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
First - Variable Plans. A lot of names out there and basically a reconstituted Variable Annuity plan of the 50’s. Blitzstein, Cheiron, Findley, Milliman, and others target companies with underfunded pensions or no pensions as a solution to shift risk from company to individual under the Variable Benefit or Variable Defined Benefit or Structured Investment. Cheiron’s first plan went into effect in 2012. Those familiar with looking at DOL efast 5500 search - look up EIN 45-4227067 Unite Here! Variable Defined benefit plan. (Dr. K - here is one plan, but there are many more out there). Download their 5500, review their documents, or pm me and I will email it to you. Here is the money quote from their plan “Note 11, The PBGC will not guarantee a benefit or benefit increases that have been in effect for less than 60 months.” That does coincide with the PBGC website regarding what plans they will guarantee and one reason those with 5 yrs or less until retirement should consider when looking at PSPP.
Second - Fear Mongering. The union, in their podcasts, have used some terms like bankruptcy and PBGC when inappropriate. The PBGC can do three things; Standard Termination (pension assets meet funding requirements and requires NO action from PBGC - AA pilots were frozen in 2011 and PBGC is NOT managing their assets), Takeover of assets (basically an insured Defined Benefit company seeks bankruptcy and assets are less than obligations - this is what we think of with max payout etc), and lastly the PBGC can terminate a severely underfunded pension. Our current pension - EIN 62-1721435 - Is fully funded under ERISA. The current annual report from Company highlights this fact over and over. The Brilliant fund managers (State Street?) made 15% from May 2019 to May 2020 and 7.7% average over last 15 years. We went from 23 Billion in Pension to 28 Billion. The annual report states multiple times that they do not need to make contributions but they do so voluntarily. Just download the annual report from investors.fedex.com and read it yourself - search pension. AA’s bankruptcy froze the pension, but since it occurred post 2006, had enough funds to give what was promised. IF Fedex closed tomorrow, everyone vested (over 5 years on property) would get EVERYTHING because the pension fund contains enough $$ to meet all future obligations. Now keep in mind, this fund contains 186,000 members (not just us). I think the videos/podcasts should explain this to everyone - our current pension is in ZERO danger. Does the company want out of pension business - of course - they also want to pay zero for pilots to move freight. The union seems to be trying to FIX a problem for the company - that really isn’t a “problem.” Even increasing the benefits - would not be a problem for company - paying $83.00 per individual and 4.5% per $1,000 of unfunded vested PBGC premiums are not preventing an increase to our A plan.
Third - PSPP - this plan is nothing special - it mirrors all the other variable plans out there (and designed by the people selling the product, Kelly Coffing, Blitzstein, etc). Search variable defined benefit - or variable pension plan - hurdle rates, floors, stabilization, shares (pancakes) etc... are all standard terms for this plan. Those that have adopted this like the MainePERS had severely underfunded pensions and HAD to do something else. Others NEVER had a pension but wanted something like it. This is 100% not a PROVEN concept (post 2004 timeframe), one has to go no farther than the Nikkei 225 in 1989 at 39,000 and seeing it at 23,000 today. They have Zero Interest Rate Policy, they monetize their debt, and most likely will never reflate to the 1989 high. The PSPP modeler (VRB or whatever it was) contained the data for the S&P 500 from 1999 to 2015 but didn’t reflect a period of down years and how that impacted retirement. The modeler used 1000 hrs (because in the plan features of Unite Here! The minimum for shares began at 1000 working hours and maxed at 1800+ hrs) VS 884 (min BLG) - so those expressing that working more gets more shares are correct. Additionally, the number of shares accrued per year requires maxing out every year - that would also suggest working harder for longer. This concept shifts investment risk to individual (the company just contributes same amount) and assets are managed. I challenge ANYONE to present this plan to their fiduciary and ask if this would be a suitable replacement.
Fourth - Current A Plan - can’t remember who brought up that the current VALUE of our plan has risen precipitously due to low rates. In 1999, with a 30 year treasury around 6%, one needed 2.1 million to fund 130K per year. With 30 year below 2%, one would need 6.5 million to fund 130K per year. The fact that the company has managed a 7.7% average over 15 years is exceptional given the continuous declining interest rates (which must stay low in perpetuity now due to interest on government debt would exceed discretionary spending at normalized rates). The CPI adjustment from 130K in 1999 to present would be 201K - so yes, Inflation is eating that. But guess what - if the goal was 50% earnings in 1999 (1/2 of 260,000) then our PAY has not kept up with inflation EITHER. Our top rate is 335 and to get $400,000 (double the CPI adjustment of 200K) - would have to get almost 1200 Credit hrs. Maybe this is happening - but at min BLG (884 X 335) 296,000 still exceeds the IRS limits but is well below the CPI Adjusted pay rate. In essence, the union has basically told us they failed to increase pay and retirement to match inflation for 20 years. Food for thought.
Last - way forward. The only benefit for everyone IF increasing A plan is % and/or IRS (not everyone will get to 25 yrs). [As an aside - the IRS in 1994 lowered the limit from 230,000 to 150,000 and the rate didn’t go back to 230,000 until 2008 - so the IRS limits are not “guaranteed” to go up. They may go down (another fallacy of PSPP) for a very long time.] How much to increase %? 3% provides $195K, or 1/2 of 335,000 (current top pay X 1,000 CH) is roughly 167 and 2.5% gets close (btw that is negotiating 1 item in CBA and leaving 260,000). Increasing B plan (and current pay rates) also offsets inflation (in today’s dollars investing for future dollars hoping to beat CPI). If I were new and had to wait 30 years - I would fight HARD for A plan improvement and hope for bigger B plan. Cash over cap - everything that has already been said on this thread.
Sorry for book - took awhile to read all 30 pages of thread. Hope somehow this helps the education process. (Yes I have volunteered and NO haven’t been taken up on it). I do have a website with comments on union podcasts, education material, 5500’s, etc regarding the misinformation given from union. If interested - pm me and I will send the info. It is private, needs registered, and I will check name against seniority list (sorry noworkallplay if you are a troll, if not, sorry, just kinda sound like a troll).
For those that skip all the above - PSPP is inferior.
09-08-2020, 04:33 AM
#318
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
The union won't let you volunteer because you have not imbibed the Kool Aid.
They are corrupt!!!!
Great explanation!!!!
They are corrupt!!!!
Great explanation!!!!
You cannot volunteer for the positions that make decisions. You have to be elected to those positions. All committee members simply follow the directions of the elected representatives.
Also, I wouldn’t characterize all of them as corrupt. I wouldn’t even say that of one of them simply for having a different point of view. Putting them all in a negative light does not help the situation, on the contrary.
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