Deviation bank
08-03-2022, 07:04 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by pinseeker
I do agree with the OP that management denying mid trip deviations based solely on the price of the deviation ticket isn't supported by the language in the contract and should be fought.
While I wish what you said was correct, I'm afraid it isn't supported by the contract.
First, a lie flat seat qualifies as meeting the higher class of service for a deadhead. Even if that lie flat seat is in economy or economy plus, it qualifies as a higher class of service seat.
Second, there is a hierarchy of scheduling a higher class of service. Unless the deadhead consists of a single leg with over 16 hours of duty, only discounted first class tickets get higher priority than business class. So, if your deadhead is scheduled for 10+30 block, and the only fares available are full fare first class or business class, you will most likely get business class for the higher class of service.
Now, you need to look at allowable expenses for air travel. It only talks about expenses for deviation travel. If there is a section of the contract that says you can arbitrarily decide to book yourself in any higher class of service than was booked by the company without deviating as an allowable expense, I'd like you to point it out.
While I wish what you said was correct, I'm afraid it isn't supported by the contract.
First, a lie flat seat qualifies as meeting the higher class of service for a deadhead. Even if that lie flat seat is in economy or economy plus, it qualifies as a higher class of service seat.
Second, there is a hierarchy of scheduling a higher class of service. Unless the deadhead consists of a single leg with over 16 hours of duty, only discounted first class tickets get higher priority than business class. So, if your deadhead is scheduled for 10+30 block, and the only fares available are full fare first class or business class, you will most likely get business class for the higher class of service.
Now, you need to look at allowable expenses for air travel. It only talks about expenses for deviation travel. If there is a section of the contract that says you can arbitrarily decide to book yourself in any higher class of service than was booked by the company without deviating as an allowable expense, I'd like you to point it out.
08-03-2022, 08:05 PM
#32
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Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by Rock
I’m aware of all that. But as has been pointed out (and practiced countless times over the last several years) the established precedent has been that upgrading to first from business class on midtrip deadheads was allowed without requesting the deviation. There’s no argument on that point. It’s simple reality. I’ve done it for years, as have most of the guys I’ve flown with. Never an issue. As long as you had bank, always covered. That precedent appears to have changed. Very recently. Without warning. Essentially during contract negotiations. I believe that is the point of this thread. I’m not going to discuss further specifics because I expect this will go to a grievance.
08-03-2022, 09:38 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by threeighteen
Again… it does not have to be written in the contract for it to be a status quo violation. If it’s written in the contract it would be a contract violation for them to change it. Because it’s a standard practice that’s being changed and not written in the contract, it’s a status quo violation.
Yes, this is what I was trying to get at. It’s the same thing with the amount of open time picked up. There is nothing in the contract that says the pilot group has to pick up X hours of open time each month. Yet, it can be a status quo violation during section 6.
It’s seems like it’s not a two way street.
08-04-2022, 07:03 AM
#34
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 909
Just to clarify, I’m talking about deviating a BIZ ticket and purchase of a deviation FC ticket, on different flight or even original scheduled flight, it’s still a deviation ticket. Not talking about seat upgrade on scheduled DH.
Used to do that NP, now no soup for you.
Used to do that NP, now no soup for you.
08-04-2022, 12:22 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by Rock
I’m aware of all that. But as has been pointed out (and practiced countless times over the last several years) the established precedent has been that upgrading to first from business class on midtrip deadheads was allowed without requesting the deviation. There’s no argument on that point. It’s simple reality. I’ve done it for years, as have most of the guys I’ve flown with. Never an issue. As long as you had bank, always covered. That precedent appears to have changed. Very recently. Without warning. Essentially during contract negotiations. I believe that is the point of this thread. I’m not going to discuss further specifics because I expect this will go to a grievance.
So you are aware that there is no contract language that allows you to purchase an upgrade ticket on the same flight without deviating and still be allowed to use deviation bank funds for the expense. That the contract states that allowable expenses are on deviated flights.And you are aware that for the two decades that you have been here, there has always been a form to fill out to upgrade your scheduled ticket to first class if you weren't booked in first class at the pilots expense. You state that you don't want to go into specifics because you expect this to be grieved. I do hope that if it is, you win. However, just because you flew under the radar for a period of time does not make it precedent with regards to the contract. My guess, and I do hope I am wrong, is that if this is grieved, after 2+ years, the arbitrator will reference the contract language and rule in favor of the company. Again, I do sincerely hope I am wrong, but IMO, there is more language against you than for you.
10-18-2022, 06:34 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
Pinseeker, you were wrong. Nice effort trying to argue on behalf of the company but they disagreed with you. 
For the rest of us…I learned some useful info recently directly from management. On 19 May 2022, the company changed its rules on deadheads. There was no FCIF or info decimated to the crew force. Management got an email, global travel got an email, and it appears ALPA was made aware based on a rather vague comment in one of their emails to the crew force after 19 May. But here’s what changed:
Starting 19 May, you can no longer upgrade yourself from a business class seat to a first class seat on a scheduled mid trip deadhead flight. Doesn’t matter if you have the bank. Doesn’t matter that before 19 May 2022 you could. Now you can’t. With one major caveat. The limitation is only if you are trying to do it on the SCHEDULED flight. If you want to fly first class instead of business class on a midtrip deadhead, you need to book your ticket on a different flight. Doesn’t have to be a different airline. Just a different flight. Since you are actually changing flights, you must now get approval for the deviation. Now here is caveat number 2. Your request to deviate will be disapproved if the cost of the first class ticket is more than double the cost of the business class ticket. So if you want to fly first class on a midtrip deadhead that qualifies for a higher class of service, find a different flight than the scheduled flight and an airfare that is less than double the accepted fare. And yes I’ve already Ops checked this and it was approved.
It appears this same policy is also going to apply to front and backend deadheads. If you cancel the scheduled business class ticket and book yourself in first class ON THE SAME flight, global travel has been instructed to deny it. Instead, you have to book yourself on an entirely different flight. They’ll approve that.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
For the rest of us…I learned some useful info recently directly from management. On 19 May 2022, the company changed its rules on deadheads. There was no FCIF or info decimated to the crew force. Management got an email, global travel got an email, and it appears ALPA was made aware based on a rather vague comment in one of their emails to the crew force after 19 May. But here’s what changed:
Starting 19 May, you can no longer upgrade yourself from a business class seat to a first class seat on a scheduled mid trip deadhead flight. Doesn’t matter if you have the bank. Doesn’t matter that before 19 May 2022 you could. Now you can’t. With one major caveat. The limitation is only if you are trying to do it on the SCHEDULED flight. If you want to fly first class instead of business class on a midtrip deadhead, you need to book your ticket on a different flight. Doesn’t have to be a different airline. Just a different flight. Since you are actually changing flights, you must now get approval for the deviation. Now here is caveat number 2. Your request to deviate will be disapproved if the cost of the first class ticket is more than double the cost of the business class ticket. So if you want to fly first class on a midtrip deadhead that qualifies for a higher class of service, find a different flight than the scheduled flight and an airfare that is less than double the accepted fare. And yes I’ve already Ops checked this and it was approved.
It appears this same policy is also going to apply to front and backend deadheads. If you cancel the scheduled business class ticket and book yourself in first class ON THE SAME flight, global travel has been instructed to deny it. Instead, you have to book yourself on an entirely different flight. They’ll approve that.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
10-18-2022, 08:32 AM
#37
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: 777 F/O
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Rock
Pinseeker, you were wrong. Nice effort trying to argue on behalf of the company but they disagreed with you.
For the rest of us…I learned some useful info recently directly from management. On 19 May 2022, the company changed its rules on deadheads. There was no FCIF or info decimated to the crew force. Management got an email, global travel got an email, and it appears ALPA was made aware based on a rather vague comment in one of their emails to the crew force after 19 May. But here’s what changed:
Starting 19 May, you can no longer upgrade yourself from a business class seat to a first class seat on a scheduled mid trip deadhead flight. Doesn’t matter if you have the bank. Doesn’t matter that before 19 May 2022 you could. Now you can’t. With one major caveat. The limitation is only if you are trying to do it on the SCHEDULED flight. If you want to fly first class instead of business class on a midtrip deadhead, you need to book your ticket on a different flight. Doesn’t have to be a different airline. Just a different flight. Since you are actually changing flights, you must now get approval for the deviation. Now here is caveat number 2. Your request to deviate will be disapproved if the cost of the first class ticket is more than double the cost of the business class ticket. So if you want to fly first class on a midtrip deadhead that qualifies for a higher class of service, find a different flight than the scheduled flight and an airfare that is less than double the accepted fare. And yes I’ve already Ops checked this and it was approved.
It appears this same policy is also going to apply to front and backend deadheads. If you cancel the scheduled business class ticket and book yourself in first class ON THE SAME flight, global travel has been instructed to deny it. Instead, you have to book yourself on an entirely different flight. They’ll approve that.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
For the rest of us…I learned some useful info recently directly from management. On 19 May 2022, the company changed its rules on deadheads. There was no FCIF or info decimated to the crew force. Management got an email, global travel got an email, and it appears ALPA was made aware based on a rather vague comment in one of their emails to the crew force after 19 May. But here’s what changed:
Starting 19 May, you can no longer upgrade yourself from a business class seat to a first class seat on a scheduled mid trip deadhead flight. Doesn’t matter if you have the bank. Doesn’t matter that before 19 May 2022 you could. Now you can’t. With one major caveat. The limitation is only if you are trying to do it on the SCHEDULED flight. If you want to fly first class instead of business class on a midtrip deadhead, you need to book your ticket on a different flight. Doesn’t have to be a different airline. Just a different flight. Since you are actually changing flights, you must now get approval for the deviation. Now here is caveat number 2. Your request to deviate will be disapproved if the cost of the first class ticket is more than double the cost of the business class ticket. So if you want to fly first class on a midtrip deadhead that qualifies for a higher class of service, find a different flight than the scheduled flight and an airfare that is less than double the accepted fare. And yes I’ve already Ops checked this and it was approved.
It appears this same policy is also going to apply to front and backend deadheads. If you cancel the scheduled business class ticket and book yourself in first class ON THE SAME flight, global travel has been instructed to deny it. Instead, you have to book yourself on an entirely different flight. They’ll approve that.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
10-18-2022, 10:40 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by Rock
Pinseeker, you were wrong. Nice effort trying to argue on behalf of the company but they disagreed with you.
For the rest of us…I learned some useful info recently directly from management. On 19 May 2022, the company changed its rules on deadheads. There was no FCIF or info decimated to the crew force. Management got an email, global travel got an email, and it appears ALPA was made aware based on a rather vague comment in one of their emails to the crew force after 19 May. But here’s what changed:
Starting 19 May, you can no longer upgrade yourself from a business class seat to a first class seat on a scheduled mid trip deadhead flight. Doesn’t matter if you have the bank. Doesn’t matter that before 19 May 2022 you could. Now you can’t. With one major caveat. The limitation is only if you are trying to do it on the SCHEDULED flight. If you want to fly first class instead of business class on a midtrip deadhead, you need to book your ticket on a different flight. Doesn’t have to be a different airline. Just a different flight. Since you are actually changing flights, you must now get approval for the deviation. Now here is caveat number 2. Your request to deviate will be disapproved if the cost of the first class ticket is more than double the cost of the business class ticket. So if you want to fly first class on a midtrip deadhead that qualifies for a higher class of service, find a different flight than the scheduled flight and an airfare that is less than double the accepted fare. And yes I’ve already Ops checked this and it was approved.
It appears this same policy is also going to apply to front and backend deadheads. If you cancel the scheduled business class ticket and book yourself in first class ON THE SAME flight, global travel has been instructed to deny it. Instead, you have to book yourself on an entirely different flight. They’ll approve that.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
For the rest of us…I learned some useful info recently directly from management. On 19 May 2022, the company changed its rules on deadheads. There was no FCIF or info decimated to the crew force. Management got an email, global travel got an email, and it appears ALPA was made aware based on a rather vague comment in one of their emails to the crew force after 19 May. But here’s what changed:
Starting 19 May, you can no longer upgrade yourself from a business class seat to a first class seat on a scheduled mid trip deadhead flight. Doesn’t matter if you have the bank. Doesn’t matter that before 19 May 2022 you could. Now you can’t. With one major caveat. The limitation is only if you are trying to do it on the SCHEDULED flight. If you want to fly first class instead of business class on a midtrip deadhead, you need to book your ticket on a different flight. Doesn’t have to be a different airline. Just a different flight. Since you are actually changing flights, you must now get approval for the deviation. Now here is caveat number 2. Your request to deviate will be disapproved if the cost of the first class ticket is more than double the cost of the business class ticket. So if you want to fly first class on a midtrip deadhead that qualifies for a higher class of service, find a different flight than the scheduled flight and an airfare that is less than double the accepted fare. And yes I’ve already Ops checked this and it was approved.
It appears this same policy is also going to apply to front and backend deadheads. If you cancel the scheduled business class ticket and book yourself in first class ON THE SAME flight, global travel has been instructed to deny it. Instead, you have to book yourself on an entirely different flight. They’ll approve that.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
First, I'm not trying to argue on behalf of the company, I'm only stating what is in the contract.
Second, it sounds like other than the dollar amount limit (which shouldn't be in there and isn't supported by contract language), what I said the contract stated was accurate.
Third, is the union grieving it? If not, why?
Fourth, if you are sure you are right, are you going to grieve it if the union doesn't? The random dollar amount for a deviation ticket isn't supported by the contract and should be grieved.
10-18-2022, 12:25 PM
#39
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
This thread has several posts with me and other guys explaining the long term precedent regarding upgrades from business to first class. When I inquired, ALPA, management and now the expense report folks all confirmed that my particular expense should be covered. It always was in the past. It was this time despite your understanding of the contract. What would I grieve?
Apparently things have changed since my expense happened. The date things changed seems to be 19 May 2022. Now if you want to upgrade, you can still do it using the procedure I outlined. New rules. Is ALPA going to grieve it? I have no idea. I suppose it depends on how many people got bit between the change of the old rules and the new rules.
Apparently things have changed since my expense happened. The date things changed seems to be 19 May 2022. Now if you want to upgrade, you can still do it using the procedure I outlined. New rules. Is ALPA going to grieve it? I have no idea. I suppose it depends on how many people got bit between the change of the old rules and the new rules.
10-18-2022, 01:12 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by Rock
This thread has several posts with me and other guys explaining the long term precedent regarding upgrades from business to first class. When I inquired, ALPA, management and now the expense report folks all confirmed that my particular expense should be covered. It always was in the past. It was this time despite your understanding of the contract. What would I grieve?
Apparently things have changed since my expense happened. The date things changed seems to be 19 May 2022. Now if you want to upgrade, you can still do it using the procedure I outlined. New rules. Is ALPA going to grieve it? I have no idea. I suppose it depends on how many people got bit between the change of the old rules and the new rules.
Apparently things have changed since my expense happened. The date things changed seems to be 19 May 2022. Now if you want to upgrade, you can still do it using the procedure I outlined. New rules. Is ALPA going to grieve it? I have no idea. I suppose it depends on how many people got bit between the change of the old rules and the new rules.
Ok, first, I'm glad that you got your issue resolved. I did not see that in your post.
As I said much earlier, my guess is that there was some sort of audit done and someone discovered that pilots were using deviation banks to upgrade scheduled tickets that was not covered by the contract language. I also said my guess is that it took a while for this to be caught because there wasn't a large section of the crew force who was doing this. I could be wrong, it is a guess.
You say that the new rules are as you posted. Those new rules are what I was saying the contract language supported. Do you think that the company can just make up rules that are not supported by the language? I know you say that it is past precedent. I spent almost a decade flying international and never flew with anyone who said they were doing what you were doing.
It was precedent that when we filled out our expense reports that if we took a flight from MEM to home after recurrent training, we did not have to check a box that determined if the cost of the ticket was considered income. That was precedent for years, but an audit was done. The rules weren't being complied with, so there was a change.
If this was a rule change that isn't supported by the contract, have you made that clear to the union? If so, and it isn't supported by the contract, they would be negligent if they did not grieve it. Supporting the contract is one of there primary jobs, and they could be sued if they knowingly let the company change the rules without it being negotiated.
Again, I am glad that you got your issue resolved. I also hope that the union grieves the arbitrary limit on the cost of a deviation ticket. Someone with direct knowledge and communications with the company needs to bring this to their attention. I would be happy to, but using APC as my reference would not support any argument we may have.
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