Originally Posted by JustInFacts

First, I am not intending to make it seem black and white, just the opposite. I am trying to point out that there is a lot more to it than the post I originally reponded to.

I don't have a copy of the AA contract, so I will assume that what you posted is correct. As far as being woefully behind, let's look at the United contract.

First, their LTD benefit. For the first two years, there is a difference of about $2500 a month between their max benefit and ours. In that first two years, a Fedex pilot will get $60,000 more in LTD benefit. After that, United gets a benefit of about $330 a month more. It will take about 15 years for that excess benefit to match the deficit of the first two years. So, after 17 years on LTD at the maximum benefit, a Fedex pilot and a United pilot will have received the same LTD payment.

Another item to look at is that Fedex pays 100% of the LTD plan while United pay 75% of their and the pilots pay the other 25%. Now, as far as DC contribuitions go, yes, Fedex doesn't make any of those for LTD. What they do have is longevity accumulation of 2% a year for the pension. So you could still max out the pension on LTD. How much of that would account for the DC contributions? Also, the Fedex offsets aren't at 100% like the United compensation offset. So I am not sure that we are woefully behind, at least United. It should also be noted that these comparisons are assuming that both pilots are earning the most they can. At United, if you are a 12 year 76-400 FO, since you didn't like the A350 comparison, your maximum benefit for 2025 would be about $13,500 per month while a Fedex FO could theoretically still make the $17,500 for the first two years and then the $14,600 after that. Again, we are talking about the top FO rate at United.

There is a lot to get into, so instead of people reading these comments as this is all there is to it, they should look at these as just a few of the items and read the differences themselves.

Originally Posted by Idaho

I heard the United cash balance plan has failed to get approval from the government. The feds can and will change the rules as needed to pump their tax revenue.

Originally Posted by FeverDream

Just so you're working with the right info....as long as your estate is under the current estate tax limit (north of $13 M), bequeathals to your kids are tax free.

Originally Posted by HIFLYR

You Speak for yourself, the original agreeed to idea was the 130k was to be addressed in future contracts. I have voted no for every contract since partly due to the cap not being raised. Yes I have saved for 130k but we deserve a long overdue increase!

Originally Posted by gatorhater

You missed my sentence about one option. That would be preferred.

However, any company (not just FedEx and us pesky pilots) trying to extricate themselves from the over burdensome regulations placed on pension funding and at the same time make those employees close to whole is a major problem. Especially when those current employees are looking at a retirement horizon sometime between 1 month and 30 years out. The 29 year old sees 35 years of market gains and their potential much differently than the 64 year old sees his 30 years of past work. Similarly, the math required to make those pilots ‘whole’ is vastly different.

My point is that two plans, the haves and have nots, like the failed TA presented, creates instant hostility and infighting at the next round of negotiations. 3 options might push that fighting out to contract 2032. 5 options might, as John says in the last video and currently pax carriers have, ‘make retirement simply a function of payroll.’

Someone with better info on longevity and ages of pilots than I can define these better but my back of napkin spitball example is something like:

60+ (or current 25 year guys) keep current with a bump
50-60 get 80% of that bump and 15% market $$
40-50 get 60% and 20% market $
30-40 get 40% and 25
<30 get 30% market.

I don’t know exactly what they’re position is, I’m not advocating or trying to negotiate, I’m just offering a point of view that may allow the issues of work rules and scope to be the unifier and decider in the future negotiations instead of hard dollars which makes it easier for the company to buy votes with retirement adjustments.

There’s still the argument about years dedicated being worth $x vs working your self to death. The old A/B ratios we currently face, that’s another philosophical challenge. I don’t have all, or any, of the answers, but it’s not a one size fits all solution.

Originally Posted by JustInFacts

First, I am not intending to make it seem black and white, just the opposite. I am trying to point out that there is a lot more to it than the post I originally reponded to.

I don't have a copy of the AA contract, so I will assume that what you posted is correct. As far as being woefully behind, let's look at the United contract.

First, their LTD benefit. For the first two years, there is a difference of about $2500 a month between their max benefit and ours. In that first two years, a Fedex pilot will get $60,000 more in LTD benefit. After that, United gets a benefit of about $330 a month more. It will take about 15 years for that excess benefit to match the deficit of the first two years. So, after 17 years on LTD at the maximum benefit, a Fedex pilot and a United pilot will have received the same LTD payment.

Another item to look at is that Fedex pays 100% of the LTD plan while United pay 75% of their and the pilots pay the other 25%. Now, as far as DC contribuitions go, yes, Fedex doesn't make any of those for LTD. What they do have is longevity accumulation of 2% a year for the pension. So you could still max out the pension on LTD. How much of that would account for the DC contributions? Also, the Fedex offsets aren't at 100% like the United compensation offset. So I am not sure that we are woefully behind, at least United. It should also be noted that these comparisons are assuming that both pilots are earning the most they can. At United, if you are a 12 year 76-400 FO, since you didn't like the A350 comparison, your maximum benefit for 2025 would be about $13,500 per month while a Fedex FO could theoretically still make the $17,500 for the first two years and then the $14,600 after that. Again, we are talking about the top FO rate at United.

There is a lot to get into, so instead of people reading these comments as this is all there is to it, they should look at these as just a few of the items and read the differences themselves.

Originally Posted by NuGuy

On minor issues, sure. Chances you can dump $3 million into a 401k either tax free or tax defered is close to zero.

Originally Posted by FXLAX

Ok, but now you are cherry picking the worst of the three legacies, which is not that bad, by the way. When you do that, you make it seem black (FDX) and white (UAL), when its more of a gray scale between multiple airlines. That's precisely why I tried to make a good faith effort to list all three of them in a way that is easy to compare. To me, if we are way behind a majorit of them and can only make an argument that we may be ahead on one in certain circumstances, ours seem woefully behind in a comprehensive comparison to the industry. You make a good point about FOs though. Which is why I find it interesting that Delta established a minimum monthly disability benefit. Seems like that may benefit the ultra junior pilots.

Delta: 50%, no cap / no cost / workers comp offset / DC 2X the benefit amount / min. payment floor.

United: 50%, cap $14,913.23 / 25% premium cost / United work offset / DC 2X the benefit amount.

American: 50%, no cap /no cost / no offsets / DC based on average monthly compensation.

FedEx: 60%, cap $17,500, then 50% cap after 24 mo. $14,583.33 / no cost / offsets / no DC.


• The APA plan information I got is from page 28 their 2023 TA Version 2.0 Executive Summary that you can find online.



It sounds like that may not be the case for mbcbp. The previous NC was trying to negotiate a new concept to convert the current accrued benefit in the Pension plan as a pre-funded lump sum balance in the MBCBP. I don't think there is a contribution limit, just a distribution limit.

Originally Posted by J586

Please see to it that good ideas are not put on this forum. The is forum is meant for folks with the emotional maturity of a 3 year old.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by JustInFacts

You are the one that said we are woefully behind, not me. You are the one that continually fails to include all retirement, only DC contributions. You are the one who made the statements without actually reading the contracts you were talking about. Now, we are suppose to go off of the executive summare for AA? Is that how you will vote when we get a TA, by just reading the executive summary?

What minimum are you talking about at DAL? Is it if you don't have 365 days at the company?

How many people at these other airlines are out on LTD and have exceeded the IRS compensation limit? Are we only going to use numbers that make this black and white, or are you going to get all the information from every legacy carrier, LCC, and cargo carrier to compare. If not, then don't accuse me of cherry picking and trying to make this black and white.

As I have stated before, there is a lot more to this than what you are posting.

I suggest that we all support our NC so that they can attempt to get us the best TA for everyone. Let's stop chasing squirrels and let them do their job!