R&I Video Sep 2016
10-17-2016, 10:40 AM
#31
Part Time Employee
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Dispersing Green House Gasses on a Global Basis
Posts: 1,918
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
I didn't run towards anything. I made a business decision. It was the right one. We can pretend that UPS got a deal because they were unified and had the company over a barrel, or we can figure it was inevitable once we signed. We still have the best contract in the industry and I wouldn't trade PBS for deltas pay rates nor Nurps for the UPS pay rate.
No one is saying anything about trading our contract for someone else's! We are just saying ours could have been better if just a few less we're scared of the perceived impression that too many were feeding off the trough!
10-17-2016, 12:01 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
I get that you think it could have been better. I get that you think that you are a brave knight standing up to the evil corporation while weaklings sell you out. I felt the same way after 2011 when we actually had something the company wanted.
Could our contract have been better yes. The question is how long would it take to gain marginal improvements? Most of us decided too long for too little, particularly with our union brothers scooping up the extra money whenever they could. The company demonstrated how easily they could get around a manning shortfall last peak.
It is over, you lost the vote, get over it.
Could our contract have been better yes. The question is how long would it take to gain marginal improvements? Most of us decided too long for too little, particularly with our union brothers scooping up the extra money whenever they could. The company demonstrated how easily they could get around a manning shortfall last peak.
It is over, you lost the vote, get over it.
10-17-2016, 06:34 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
I get that you think it could have been better. I get that you think that you are a brave knight standing up to the evil corporation while weaklings sell you out. I felt the same way after 2011 when we actually had something the company wanted.
Could our contract have been better yes. The question is how long would it take to gain marginal improvements? Most of us decided too long for too little, particularly with our union brothers scooping up the extra money whenever they could. The company demonstrated how easily they could get around a manning shortfall last peak.
It is over, you lost the vote, get over it.
Could our contract have been better yes. The question is how long would it take to gain marginal improvements? Most of us decided too long for too little, particularly with our union brothers scooping up the extra money whenever they could. The company demonstrated how easily they could get around a manning shortfall last peak.
It is over, you lost the vote, get over it.
Got it.
10-17-2016, 06:53 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Busboy
So...Rather than learn from our mistake(2011), you decided to become part of the mistake.
Got it.
Got it.
10-17-2016, 07:06 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,057
Delta pay rates were NOT on the table for us. UPS NURPs were NOT on the table for us. What was on the table for OUR negotiations was unity and resolve. We had the unity, of the vast majority of our then 4,200 pilots, regardless of the very small minority flying DRF/VOL/AVA. What we didn't have was the necessary resolve. I would place the majority share of the responsibility at the foot of our leaders, the NC. Unfortunately they gave strength to the voice of fear. You know, the voice that has justified our vote with the following:
- it might us 3-4 years to get another TA, it's not worth it
- "mode-shift"
- we've never won against the company - why try now?
- I'm tracking that small minority in our group flying DRF and VOL - we don't have unity
- let's take this subpar, known deal now instead of continuing on the path for what we set out to achieve - our openers
- TA #2 might not happen, it might take too long
- I have a feeling Delta won't get a good second TA, just wait and see, it'll take them years to reorganize
Without the NC's fatigued "leaderhip" and push to pass the TA, those voices of fear would've not overcome our resolve. A lot of those voices were guys/gals who went to a Road Show as completely decided NO voters, only to come out changing their vote in favor of what they mostly admitted was "the least bad option". We had the opportunity, and the unity. Hopefully we learn from this lesson and apply that learning 5 years from now, and have the necessary resolve then as well. Of course that'll partially depend on the leverage, or lack thereof, at that point in time.
- it might us 3-4 years to get another TA, it's not worth it
- "mode-shift"
- we've never won against the company - why try now?
- I'm tracking that small minority in our group flying DRF and VOL - we don't have unity
- let's take this subpar, known deal now instead of continuing on the path for what we set out to achieve - our openers
- TA #2 might not happen, it might take too long
- I have a feeling Delta won't get a good second TA, just wait and see, it'll take them years to reorganize
Without the NC's fatigued "leaderhip" and push to pass the TA, those voices of fear would've not overcome our resolve. A lot of those voices were guys/gals who went to a Road Show as completely decided NO voters, only to come out changing their vote in favor of what they mostly admitted was "the least bad option". We had the opportunity, and the unity. Hopefully we learn from this lesson and apply that learning 5 years from now, and have the necessary resolve then as well. Of course that'll partially depend on the leverage, or lack thereof, at that point in time.
10-18-2016, 12:37 PM
#38
"blue collar thug"!
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: A proponent of...
Posts: 1,614
Originally Posted by TonyC
It's pretty easy to see a handful of folks being selfish and short-sighted, and The Company really enjoys it when that tiny minority is given the power to spook a larger crowd -- like you.
It's a lot harder to see the THOUSANDS who were being patient and thoughtful and working toward a better long-term solution. It's also a lot harder to quantify the disappointment they experienced when the weaker sheep get scared and run towards the cliff.
Here we are a year later, and The Company still needs vacation buy-back in EVERY SEAT in the airline, except for the Airbus guys in Hong Kong that they can't seem to train. Why, because they're hiring new pilots off the street faster than they can train them.
Think about it. With EVERYONE working extra, it's still not enough now, and you were worried about a handful last year?!?! There's a reason The Company finally came to the table ready to make a deal -- it's because they could no longer survive without more than a handful of the people you saw trying to make a quick buck.
Some people spook easy.
That's where, in my opinion, good leaders come into play. Good leaders motivate feeble, scared recruits into ruthless, fearless warriors. Weak leaders say, "Hey, take a look at this, see what y'all think."
.
It's a lot harder to see the THOUSANDS who were being patient and thoughtful and working toward a better long-term solution. It's also a lot harder to quantify the disappointment they experienced when the weaker sheep get scared and run towards the cliff.
Here we are a year later, and The Company still needs vacation buy-back in EVERY SEAT in the airline, except for the Airbus guys in Hong Kong that they can't seem to train. Why, because they're hiring new pilots off the street faster than they can train them.
Think about it. With EVERYONE working extra, it's still not enough now, and you were worried about a handful last year?!?! There's a reason The Company finally came to the table ready to make a deal -- it's because they could no longer survive without more than a handful of the people you saw trying to make a quick buck.
Some people spook easy.
That's where, in my opinion, good leaders come into play. Good leaders motivate feeble, scared recruits into ruthless, fearless warriors. Weak leaders say, "Hey, take a look at this, see what y'all think."
.
And, I dont think he will ever get it, or, admit that he gets it.
10-18-2016, 04:31 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by CloudSailor
Delta pay rates were NOT on the table for us. UPS NURPs were NOT on the table for us...
10-18-2016, 05:55 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,057
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
Actually both were on the table. Remember PIBS? Remember management wanted all training to go to pros?
I see those two items you mention, as distractions brilliantly played by the company, meant to fatigue our NC and pilot group. Also they worked brilliantly in favor of the company in that, apparently for some, we "won" since our TA did not include huge detrimental changes to our A plan or all of our scheduling going to PBS (both forced on DAL in bankruptcy - NOT voted in by their pilot group), nor more pros in the schoolhouse (which don't even come close to what NURPs are - schoolhouse non-seniority pros are at many airlines).
You see, keeping PBS away (other than the SLS system) and keeping line pilots as pros are NOT wins. Those were status quo retentions. That was what we already had, as we voted prior to two of the most profitable quarters the corporation has ever seen.
I'm glad that you see this as a win and that you feel great about our contract and the majority's vote (pushed and sold by the NC). I certainly hope our NC in 2021 does not agree with your point of view.
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