67Creek

If I were you, I wouldn't fly a single-engine airplane beyond your instrument phase. Get into a fast and slick piston twin that has modern avionics. I'd look at something like a late-model Baron.

When you can wear that airplane, are always ahead of it, have no issues flying it into a high-workload environment, and generally are bored with it's performance, then go buy your jet. Spend all that money you were going to waste on time-building and buying/selling a turboprop to pay a mentor pilot to fly with you.

Start out sitting in the right seat, acting as a copilot, so you can get a baseline on PIC techniques and decision making. When you feel like you're getting a good handle on the jet, GO TO A SIMULATOR COURSE. Have them beat you up.

Once you've got some right seat time in the jet, and have been thoroughly molested in the left seat in the sim, then swap places with your mentor pilot. Fly that way until you feel he's redundant and then head off on your own.

My point is this:

A 2000 hour pilot with 500 piston single, then 500 piston twin, then 500 turboprop, then 500 jet is plenty qualified to fly a VLJ, sure.

However, a 2000 hour pilot with 100 piston single, 400 piston twin, and the remaining 1500 in the exact jet in question, is much more suited to fly that particular VLJ.

TiredSoul

All good points.
Mine is a little more rudimentary, get past your Private first.
Even at Private pilot level you need to make intuitive decisions and you don’t have the time to evaluate to the Nth- degree.
There is practical vs academic.
There is no need to know the propeller tip rotation speed nor the tensile strength of the sheet of aluminum that covers the wing. No need to worry about it either.
Consider how you drive your car when you get to a stop sign.
Do you come to a compete stop, set the emergency brake to make sure you’re not moving, shut the engine down then count 21-22-23 and then start again? But that’s what the sign said right? Stop?
But that’s just not the practical way to go about it.
And this is what you are doing right now. You’re dividing numbers by two and you’ll never reach zero. Mathematically you won’t no.
But everybody else is already at zero.
You understand what I mean by overthinking?
Kick your shoes off and go walk on the beach.
Don’t think about crossing oceans and how many life boats you would need.

November Seven

Dumbest thing I've ever heard on a GA Forum thus far. But, you are entitled to your opinions, no matter how off the mark they might be.

galaxy flyer

Some humility might be in order—review the hull losses for the typical owner-flown jets. Something like 6% of Beech Premiers written off in fatal accidents. It’s not pretty, then add in the PC-12, TBM, Cirrus rates and lots more ugly outcomes.

Not to be pessimistic, but the record encourages comments like that one.

GF

November Seven

I checked it out and it was good info. I appreciate that level of help.


Indeed, I want to get things done right for a whole host of good reasons. You sound like you understand.

Some of the posts have been very helpful, thought provoking and specifically on target. I appreciate those posts. That's why I came. On the other hand, some of the posts have been so obnoxiously dumb that there really wasn't much for me to reply to.


Then you are right smack in the wheelhouse of the kind/type of experienced pilot I need to be speaking with.


Intuitively, I've understood this from the word go. What I obviously lack due to simply not having real world experience is whether or not these "challenges" push a low time pilot beyond the limit of their abilities. I make that statement in the context of how long my Time Building Phase should be before going permanent single pilot. Also, what aircraft makes the best platform for such a Time Building Phase.


Indeed and congrats on successfully doing it. Of course, you had 'milspec' flight training too and that never hurts.


You touch on some very interesting points that I have slowly discovered as being highly valid during my research into this. This is exactly what I am trying to simulate throughout the rest of my Private Flying Career.

"Private Flying Career," because I have every intention on flying for the next 20-25 years in a VLJ with the mindset of a 135 pilot/operator - in the sense of taking Aircraft Maintenance, Aircraft Squawks, Aircraft Handling & Security very seriously.

I estimate between 200-300 hours flown annually. As you mention, a Professional Pilot gets to be "professional" in large degree because of the hours he/she puts into honing their craft every single year. I won't be able to fly as much as the Professional Pilot (1,000 hrs per year) on an annual basis. So, I'll need compensating safety factors built-in to my routine annual flying to mitigate risk and increase proficiency - once the time comes and I am single pilot in a VLJ. Right now, its about Training and Time Building.

No doubt, I will follow the NBAA Guidance on requirements for getting insured and for developing a "Mentor Pilot" relationship. That will include owning the jet and flying with a Mentor Pilot before going "full-time" Single Pilot. I have that as the final Phase of my Preparedness Program.



This is a very interesting question that I have been admittedly struggling with from day one: Type Rating Training in Sim or Type Rating Training in Aircraft. Every single time I think I have justification for doing it one way, something or someone comes along with something I had not considered that shifts my opinion to the other way. I'm wondering if there is a truly right or wrong answer here - or setting up a Type Rating Training Program that includes both the optimal answer.

Thanks for causing me to think about it, yet again!

galaxy flyer

Any of the jets will be typed in the sim with a restriction on the certificate for supervisory instruction in the plane—25 hours, I think is the norm.

GF

Mink

Another avenue for your research might be to contact one of the sim training outfits. I was very impressed with these guys when I went there with the owner I was working with in the CJ3:

ProFlight West | TRU Simulation + Training | TRU Simulation

They seemed very "in tune" with the owner / operator situation. You might call them and ask to speak with someone in leadership, and present them with your "zero to VLJ" scenario. Ask them what they think and what they recommend for the best "pre-jet" training. If nothing else, they can tell what they've seen that has worked, and what hasn't, as far as clients' backgrounds and getting through their training track.

November Seven

I spent a few hours at a Part 61 club that offers flight training this Sunday. One of the instructors there essentially concluded the same as you. Instinctively, I've been increasingly 'feeling' that this is the right thing to do with one exception - Turbine Time. The first challenge will be getting to the point where I am VLJ insurable in the eyes of the underwriter.

The insurance company seems to care mostly about my relevant turbine time as PIC. I care mostly about my relevant Multi-Engine Turbine time as PIC flying IFR in IMC, plenty of Night ops and into HDA airports. So, my standards are always going to be higher.

After the Private and Instrument Rating, what do you think about these candidates for the Multi-Engine Rating and Multi-Engine Turbine Time Building Phase:

- Cessna Conquest I 425
- Cessna Conquest II 441
- Beechcraft King Air B100
- Beechcraft King Air B200
- Piper Cheyenne (lots of variants avail)

On the used market, all of these aircraft can be found between $1mil - $375k depending on overall condition, Airframe/Cycle TT, Engine Type & TBO and Avionics installed. That will be roughly 1/10th or less of the VLJ cost. Very reasonable acquisition cost for a Time Building Platform. Ironically, from a pure cost comparison perspective, you can find a used Baron G58 within the exact same price range - just without the Turbines.

Would it be better to Time Build in the larger airframe that a Conquest, King Air or Cheyenne offers over the Baron? I'll need about 3,000+ hours in a Twin. The Conquest I or II seems like the easier transition platform of the three, just based on my research thus far.

During the Time Building Phase, I plan to treat it like a "Job" flying every day except weekends. There is plenty of IMC including rain, snow, fog, mountainous terrain and desert terrain all within that radius based on where I live - including plenty of busy (dense) Class B.

For a 3,000 hour Multi-Engine (Turbine) Time Building Phase, the hourly breakdown looks like this:

3,000+ hours / 36 months = 83 hours per Month
83 hours / 4 weeks = 21 hours per Week
21 hours / 5 days = 4 hours per Day

- 2 hour outbound leg plus 2 hour inbound leg per day
- 1hr flight planning
- 1hr commute to and from airport each day
- 15-40 minute pre-flight (including fuel order and/or light maint if nec
- 1hr reserve (max) for IFR departure delay

I've seen pilots waiting 43 minutes on the ground at my airport before getting their IFR departure clearance. I've seen some of them request taxi back to ramp to shut down engines and wait for IFR clearance. And, I've seen some dump the IFR departure in favor of a VFR departure to file IFR on top. So, that's why I use a 1hr max delay. If I don't need it, fine.

That's about an 8hr day total, or a full-time job. There may be weeks were I need to cut that 8hr work day in half or even down to one quarter, but I will simply make up for it along the way at some point during that year by flying more hours when I can. This gives me 3,000+hrs PIC Multi-Engine Turbine Prop.

From that point: How long do I spend with a Mentor after OEM VLJ Transition Training and Type Rating? 10hrs, 20hrs, 30hrs Mentor flying? What's appropriate with a Mentor in the VLJ before going true Single Pilot full-time?


I think I see where you're coming from now. That's the exact opposite approach. It sounds like you see the Baron as a basic Multi-Engine Instrument Twin Platform so to speak. Turbines are not really emphasized here at all. You want me flat out bored in the Baron, which really means Highly Proficient in the Baron as a Multi-Engine Instrument platform, then shift gears to the VLJ with Mentor. Hmmmm. That's interesting.

The one problem is that most of the low time Barons I've looked at online price out between $1.5mln down to $500k without damage history and many having G1000. That's about where you will find mid to high time Conquest I or II with mid-level Glass (GNS530, etc.) and no damage history. The King Airs are simply more expensive and typically come with less Glass at the same price range - those airframes are typically higher time with older OEM dates. The Cheyennes seem to fit the Conquest II used price model and sometimes the King Air B100 used price model for similar avionics on-board.

So, if we're basically talking the same money - would you prefer the larger airframe of something like the Conquest II over the Baron - including the differences in ownership experience between the two - one being turbine and the other normally aspirated?



I especially like the part about having someone thrash you in the sim and exposing weaknesses until you become a tough nut to crack, then switching seats with the Mentor. Very interesting. Thanks.

Your method/approach to all this seems intuitive, safe, practical, seamless and progressive. I rather like it. The hang-up I have is with the Baron cost factor. It can be made identical to a Turbine Prop. So, why not just grab the Turbine Time while I'm at it, following your method/approach?

Besides, your approach allows me to order the darn thing within the next 6 months, as manufacturing time could take 9 months to over 1 year - depending on CJ4 or Phenom 300.



[With a Mentor in the VLJ] Very interesting, indeed. Thanks. This is very helpful info. Much appreciated.

FlyJSH

Truth is for the first 500 hours in type, the higher cost of insurance would be just about equal to hiring a professional.

My last "chauffer" job in a Caravan my salary was within about $2000/year difference between having the owner fly himself or hiring me. Oh, and the insurer would only give him $2 million liability versus $10 million for me.

November Seven

Much appreciated. I've taken what you said to heart and in light of many other things I've learned along the way in this phase of my research.

I think what I'm discovering throughout this process is that a Highly Personalized Hybrid Training Program with the structure of a Part 141 and the flexibility of a Part 61 combined with a willingness to do the work on my part developing really solid Instrument skills and an earlier than normal introduction to Twins - all underlined by competent Flight Instructor who can take me through Private, Instrument and Multi-Engine, coupled with some strategically placed Sim Training to sharpen rough Instrument edges and build reliable Mutli-Engine emergency procedures, is probably closer to the truth.

I have a hard time flying by the seat of my pants in anything important that I do. I'm going to be RVSM certified, Single Pilot certified in a VLJ carrying family members, friends and business associates. Intuitively, that tells me that right from the word "go," I have to enforce structured Training coupled to flexible and structured Time Building. Having fun along the way is absolutely guaranteed. Looking at the longer term picture, the duty and responsibility that I will have when flying family, friends and business associates seems to require a high level of personal responsibility for making sure the Training and Time Building phases were arranged as optimal as humanly within the context of what both Part 61 and Part 141 can offer. For example, I've just made one final decision.

I have just retired the notion of using ATP Flight School as a one stop shop for Flight Instruction. Though I think it would be a great alternative for others, it would be focused on a goal that is not within my realm of focus. In addition, ATP would not provide the level of in-depth exploration of subject matter that from time-to-time I know I'll need during the course of my Training Phase. There will be times when I will simply need to 'freeze' the training at a specific point until I can grind out subject matter issues I'm having with the help of my Instructor - then hit the resume button on the remainder of the Training. Most Part 141 programs don't have this 'Pause' feature. I'm going to build that into my Training Program and get agreement from my Flight Instructor before implementing it.

I'm not merely trying to get beyond a Written Exam or pass a Check Ride. I need to be sure that I am absolutely comfortable with my knowledge and that I am not relying upon educated guesswork to get me through tough times. Life has taught me that this is the best approach to learning anything new and/or complex. Having superficial knowledge without understanding the WHY behind what you are doing can lead to second guessing yourself because you know at a much deeper level that you've been relying upon foggy guesswork for too long and it may be coming back to bite you. I'm trying to keep myself out of that boat - by learning and knowing the subject matter, cold.

I've already made a commitment to myself that I'm not going to be a Professional Guesser. I owe that to myself and the people who will rely upon me as single pilot in the future. This is my commitment to myself and to them.

Hard work, focus, structure and dynamic flexibility in my Training. That's going to be super critical to getting it done right for me, personally. I'll pay my Instructor whatever it takes to get that level of dynamic flexibility until I am 100% confident that I at least have the fundamentals correct on everything I do in the training regime. I may not have all the advanced concepts down cold, but that will come with more training and time. However, the fundamental basics need to be well understood by me before progressing to the next level. That's just something I've got to have going forward.

This is why I need a custom tailored hybridized 61/141 program built from scratch, geared exclusively for the VLJ and authored by a competent Instructor who sees and understands that goal clearly and vividly. I cannot wander in any aspect of my Training. I cannot simply wing it. I cannot merely go out and just have fun for fun sake.

In short, I've got to get my **** together - and I know it. I get it. I've got real work to do. That's going to require both structure and a high degree of flexibility. I don't bring 20 years of prior experience. So, my focus must be higher at the outset than the guy who does have that 20 year head-start on the process of preparing for a jet.

There will be plenty of time for relaxation and fun. Just not now. It is ok. I'm used to working hard and enjoying it. I won't burn out. I'm on fire for this. I've been waiting for this since I was a kid. Now's the time.

Thanks for your help!