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Old 12-22-2020, 06:34 PM   #11  
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My recommendation would be a small mom and pop FBO flight school with an older CFI who is retired IE not trying to build time to go to a regional. If you find the right place, the training will be 100x better than the big pilot mills and half the price.
Yep. This. Some Part 61 programs are quite structured, particularly at schools where the instructors don't rotate out every six months.
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Old 12-22-2020, 07:15 PM   #12  
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My recommendation would be a small mom and pop FBO flight school with an older CFI who is retired IE not trying to build time to go to a regional. If you find the right place, the training will be 100x better than the big pilot mills and half the price.
I third this. Don't do it.

As someone who flies with A LOT of 141 factory pilots: on average, they are below the 61 guys and the pilots who did something else other than instruct at their 141 factory (cargo, bush, gliders, drone escort, etc.). The 141 schools are TOO structured. The pilots aren't allowed to think for themselves with their dispatch and ops dictating which airports they can fly to and when. The students don't develop any critical thinking skills, risk management, or flying skills outside of their limitations. When they show up at Indoc, they've flown a 172, a few hours in an Arrow, a few hours in a Seminole and they've touched down at maybe half a dozen different airports. That's it. They don't know what STOL is, never heard of Reno, have no idea what a taildragger is, and ****ed themselves during the half hour of spin training for their CFI.

And some of them have unbelievable arrogance because they come from the "famed" UND or Riddle with laughable degrees in Aeronautical "Science" yet they can't calculate the crosswind component using high school trig and calculator.

Save yourself a lot money; buy your kid a Champ, a tent, sleeping bag, and a bunch of sectional charts. Kick him out of the nest to learn about the real world with a couple of 2000 mile x-countries. Use the rest of the money for a real degree in accounting or software engineering. Or even art history so we can have an intelligent conversation at cruise.
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Old 12-23-2020, 04:09 AM   #13  
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My recommendation would be a small mom and pop FBO flight school with an older CFI who is retired IE not trying to build time to go to a regional. If you find the right place, the training will be 100x better than the big pilot mills and half the price.
^ This.

I've instructed at both 141 and 61. The 61 op was just as structured as the 141, but that's also how I wanted it for my students so they had some sort of a curriculum to follow and knew what to expect. It was also cheap which is a plus for mom, dad, and student.
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Old 12-23-2020, 06:52 AM   #14  
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I don't think it should be just Part 61 as a blanket statement. You have to do your research and know exactly who you're hiring as an instructor. There are a lot of really great instructors that genuinely love to teach. But FBO's also have some serious duds. I was a helo guy with civilian and mil time and wanted to get my fixed wing add ons. I didn't want to do the RTP stuff though. I shopped around until I found a knowledgeable instructor who would challenge me to be better everyday.
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Old 12-23-2020, 08:15 AM   #15  
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I don't think it should be just Part 61 as a blanket statement. You have to do your research and know exactly who you're hiring as an instructor. There are a lot of really great instructors that genuinely love to teach. But FBO's also have some serious duds. I was a helo guy with civilian and mil time and wanted to get my fixed wing add ons. I didn't want to do the RTP stuff though. I shopped around until I found a knowledgeable instructor who would challenge me to be better everyday.
Yeah this is an important point. It's critical to choose a good CFI before committing to any program. Usually you can tell pretty quickly how things will go just by talking to em.
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Old 12-23-2020, 09:01 AM   #16  
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Thanks for the input from my question. I have mixed feeling about how my son was training at a local flight school that is both big, expensive and training both 61 and 141. I never met his instructor, I made a decision to try to stay as hands off in deference to both instructor and son. He got his PPL, so the square was filled. The details I get in quizzing my son about the how and why's, well I think the job could have been better. I'm a long dormant CFII but very current otherwise. I can teach him, if it works for us both, but I'm willing to pay and able to pay for someone with the knowledge, desire and resources to it, if I believe it will be done right.

The cost of the "academies" is pretty outrageous, but as someone who was paying as little as $16 for a 150 in 1977, everything seems pricey. I told him I think he needs a structured training program, better focus, time concentrated, all of which points away from local 61 with dad or another instructor (that I vet) and more to sending him out of town. So I'm weighing all options. Since I walked the path, I know the pitfalls of not being properly prepared, not just have the tickets but being ready when ( I hope) some regional puts him in a class and than firehoses a training program at him.
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Old 12-23-2020, 09:31 AM   #17  
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Looking to possibly send my college graduate son to a "program" flight school. He has his PPL, less than a year from a local flight school. I think he would do better in a more structured environment that would provide a better path to a regional (when that becomes feasable). Any word from those of you who went this path, the school , location etc, If it was bad and you'd rather not put it out on the forum, PM me. Currently looking at AeroGuard, know nothing about them, just currently on my radar.
I had a similar route. Local flight school for PPL, and then ATP for the rest of my ratings. While my experience with ATP was a positive one (especially compared to what a lot of other folks have to say), those places are very hit or miss with the quality of instruction given. I was one of the lucky ones. Even with my “luck,” it was extraordinarily expensive.

My biggest piece of advice - if he goes that route - is to avoid the “guaranteed instructor job” once he completes the program. It’s a tempting path of least resistance, but he will be making poverty wages and working hellish hours. Encourage him to be flexible and willing to relocate if possible, and he will be able to make a much more comfortable - perhaps even lucrative - living while he’s working towards airline minimums.
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:48 PM   #18  
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Originally Posted by dckozak View Post
Thanks for the input from my question. I have mixed feeling about how my son was training at a local flight school that is both big, expensive and training both 61 and 141. I never met his instructor, I made a decision to try to stay as hands off in deference to both instructor and son. He got his PPL, so the square was filled. The details I get in quizzing my son about the how and why's, well I think the job could have been better. I'm a long dormant CFII but very current otherwise. I can teach him, if it works for us both, but I'm willing to pay and able to pay for someone with the knowledge, desire and resources to it, if I believe it will be done right.

The cost of the "academies" is pretty outrageous, but as someone who was paying as little as $16 for a 150 in 1977, everything seems pricey. I told him I think he needs a structured training program, better focus, time concentrated, all of which points away from local 61 with dad or another instructor (that I vet) and more to sending him out of town. So I'm weighing all options. Since I walked the path, I know the pitfalls of not being properly prepared, not just have the tickets but being ready when ( I hope) some regional puts him in a class and than firehoses a training program at him.
Speaking of academies, have you considered military options? Not the right fit for everyone, but great for some.
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:53 PM   #19  
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Originally Posted by dckozak View Post
Thanks for the input from my question. I have mixed feeling about how my son was training at a local flight school that is both big, expensive and training both 61 and 141. I never met his instructor, I made a decision to try to stay as hands off in deference to both instructor and son. He got his PPL, so the square was filled. The details I get in quizzing my son about the how and why's, well I think the job could have been better. I'm a long dormant CFII but very current otherwise. I can teach him, if it works for us both, but I'm willing to pay and able to pay for someone with the knowledge, desire and resources to it, if I believe it will be done right.

The cost of the "academies" is pretty outrageous, but as someone who was paying as little as $16 for a 150 in 1977, everything seems pricey. I told him I think he needs a structured training program, better focus, time concentrated, all of which points away from local 61 with dad or another instructor (that I vet) and more to sending him out of town. So I'm weighing all options. Since I walked the path, I know the pitfalls of not being properly prepared, not just have the tickets but being ready when ( I hope) some regional puts him in a class and than firehoses a training program at him.
Well, training him yourself sounds like a great bonding experience. Buy a plane, work on his instrument and commercial and build time. You could expose him to crm and the concept of 2 pilot ops.You two could travel the country building time and experience for a fraction of the cost of a embry or und degree
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Old 12-23-2020, 01:08 PM   #20  
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stay away from L3
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