Class G IFR
01-17-2008, 11:59 AM
#11
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by Photon
Speaking of IFR regulations, in regards to:
"§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR."
C) Operations below DA/DH or MDA
When listing the visual references, one of these are:
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
This is something that has like different opinions all over our school.
Visual approach slope indicator is VASI right, so if you see the PAPI lights on a runway, does that not qualify you to descend below DA/DH/MDA? PAPI isn't VASI etc... what do you guys think
"§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR."
C) Operations below DA/DH or MDA
When listing the visual references, one of these are:
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
This is something that has like different opinions all over our school.
Visual approach slope indicator is VASI right, so if you see the PAPI lights on a runway, does that not qualify you to descend below DA/DH/MDA? PAPI isn't VASI etc... what do you guys think
The regs are not always worded perfectly, but in the vast majority of such cases the FAA enforces the intent. There is more flexibility in administrative law than in criminal law.
01-17-2008, 12:01 PM
#12
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
So how does one prove they were flying in accordance with instrument flight regulations when seen punching clouds without having filed an instrument flight plan? That would be my thought in regard to departing IFR from a class G airstrip in Alaska or somewhere that there are no DPs. You would want to protect yourself legally. I have heard stories about people getting busted for not complying with class G vfr mins in such situations.
Why would you have to prove it? They would have to prove you weren't legal, which would be hard to do unless you actually violated a reg which they could objectively measure (ex. currency).
01-17-2008, 12:21 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Fixed wing, left
Posts: 434
We used to depart out of airports in the Sierra's in CA, VFR, climb up to as high as 11,500' msl and perhaps enter the clouds (staying above the grid MORA), contact ATC (Oakland Center), get our clearance, and then climb into class E airspace above 12,000' msl.
So with that said, would you depart out of the same airport if vis was 0-0?
I'm just trying to understand this for general knowlege more then anything. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable departing out of an airport that was 0-0 in moutians area (ex: sierras) unless I was in an f-22 that could shoot strait up to fl 180 or something... hahaha. But seriously, I gather that its leagal to depart out of airports in Class G with 0-0 and no DP (I guess there wouldnt be a dp in any class G) under IFR as long as you maintain terrerain seperation (duh). If you want to enter class E, you would have to have prior clerance. Is my thinking inline with the LEGAL portion of the regs?
01-17-2008, 12:33 PM
#14
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by Scooter2525
So with that said, would you depart out of the same airport if vis was 0-0?
I'm just trying to understand this for general knowlege more then anything. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable departing out of an airport that was 0-0 in moutians area (ex: sierras) unless I was in an f-22 that could shoot strait up to fl 180 or something... hahaha. But seriously, I gather that its leagal to depart out of airports in Class G with 0-0 and no DP (I guess there wouldnt be a dp in any class G) under IFR as long as you maintain terrerain seperation (duh). If you want to enter class E, you would have to have prior clerance. Is my thinking inline with the LEGAL portion of the regs?
I'm just trying to understand this for general knowlege more then anything. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable departing out of an airport that was 0-0 in moutians area (ex: sierras) unless I was in an f-22 that could shoot strait up to fl 180 or something... hahaha. But seriously, I gather that its leagal to depart out of airports in Class G with 0-0 and no DP (I guess there wouldnt be a dp in any class G) under IFR as long as you maintain terrerain seperation (duh). If you want to enter class E, you would have to have prior clerance. Is my thinking inline with the LEGAL portion of the regs?
If you have an instrument failure on the roll or shortly after T/O you're toast.
If you have an engine failure, you'll never see the object that hits you.
My personal minimum is to have high enough ceilings to lose the engine, configure, and still have some time and visibility to pick a spot to land.
01-17-2008, 01:08 PM
#15
Blue Skies
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: C208B
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by mcartier713
I'm 99.9% sure the PAPIs count even tho they are not specifically listed... they are part of the approach lighting system, so if they are "distinctly visible and identifiable" then there should be no reason they wouldn't count.
how do you guys pronounce "VASI?" vASSee or vAHsee
how do you guys pronounce "VASI?" vASSee or vAHsee
Originally Posted by rickair7777
The term "Visual Approach Slope Indicator" in 91.175 is a generic term that means any such visual glideslope device (papi, vasi, tri-color, etc).
The regs are not always worded perfectly, but in the vast majority of such cases the FAA enforces the intent. There is more flexibility in administrative law than in criminal law.
The regs are not always worded perfectly, but in the vast majority of such cases the FAA enforces the intent. There is more flexibility in administrative law than in criminal law.
. Just been a constant subject here at school
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