Scooter2525

So recently I've been working on my instrument currency and I remember a question that was often discussed at our flight school and also asked by a specific examiner. It was whether or not you could legally depart out of a class G airport in IFR. I'm pretty sure I remember it being okay, but if someone could point me in the right direction in FAR/AIM, or along those lines, Ide appreciate it. And another instrument question (I haven't done this stuff in years) how WOULD you depart out of an airport that didn't have a DP and lets say WX was like 1 mile vis and 500 ceiling? Or can you? THANK YOU!

Cubdriver

You are asking is it legal and as far as the law goes you can take off into "zero-zero" if you are on an instrument flight plan, you are Part 91 not-for-hire, and it is an airport not having FAA established takeoff viz/ceiling minimums such as a local airstrip. See CFR 14 FAR 91.175 section f. But the point is, no one in their right mind would do it. If you even get airborne without incident you can't land, as there is no ILS, ATC, or other airport nearby. Eat popcorn at the FBO until the sun comes out.

N0315

Yes you can t/o under any IFR if on an IFR flight plan. For the second question Fly your filed route and contact ATC before entering controlled airspace.

mcartier713

as far as I know, you don't even need a flight plan to fly IFR in class G.. it's uncontrolled airspace, thats the the whole point... but cub is right, no one in their right mind would do it because chances are you'd hit something being that close to the ground.

... and all a DP is, is a ROUTE thats published to decrease the workload of ATC and provide obstruction clearance, its just a route. so if you're flying out of an airport that doesn't have a published DP, you just file and fly your own route.

Scooter2525

I totally agree that it wouldn't be proper decision making to depart out in 0-0 class G airspace. I was more curious of the legality of it though.

As for departing out of an airport without a DP, it would seem to me that you would file your route, and with filing the route, you would need a sectional to verify a safe route that ensure terrain separation, correct?

rickair7777

It is perfectly legal to fly IFR in glass G airspace, including departure and instrument approaches. It is commonly done in some areas (Alaska).

You don't need an IFR flight plan in class G (and ATC would not issue one anyway).

You must meet ALL of the usual currency and equipment rules.

You must use an approved approach (GPS approaches are getting more common at little fields). I don't recall seeing an airport with an approach which was not class E or better, but I think there are some (Alaska maybe?).

On departure you can use a DP (SID) or the Obstacle Departure procedure. I doubt many class G fields have DP/SIDs.

I AM NOT recommending this, but in the absence of a DP or obstacle DP I believe you can make up your own obstacle departure procedure by complying with the requirements of the FAR's for terrain clearance on departure. I think you would have to reference the TERPs. Again, do not go do this.

Enroute, you must fly a route which complies with the normal IFR NAVAID reception and terrain clearance requirements. This would not be unreasonably difficult. You can also use published IFR routes if they exist.

If you leave class G and enter other airspace, you need a normal IFR clearance prior to the point.

WEACLRS

Rick's correct.

In fact you've probably flown IFR in class G airspace many times. If you have ever departed a class G field after getting a clearance from ATC (center, approach, FSS...), you have been in class G airspace until you reached class E, normally 700 or 1200 feet agl, but it could be much higher. Your clearance will have included the following statement: "...upon entering controlled airspace...". ATC has no authority within class G airspace. You are totally responsible for your own obstacle clearance and route.

We used to depart out of airports in the Sierra's in CA, VFR, climb up to as high as 11,500' msl and perhaps enter the clouds (staying above the grid MORA), contact ATC (Oakland Center), get our clearance, and then climb into class E airspace above 12,000' msl.

Cubdriver

So how does one prove they were flying in accordance with instrument flight regulations when seen punching clouds without having filed an instrument flight plan? That would be my thought in regard to departing IFR from a class G airstrip in Alaska or somewhere that there are no DPs. You would want to protect yourself legally. I have heard stories about people getting busted for not complying with class G vfr mins in such situations.

Photon

Speaking of IFR regulations, in regards to:
"§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR."
C) Operations below DA/DH or MDA

When listing the visual references, one of these are:
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

This is something that has like different opinions all over our school.
Visual approach slope indicator is VASI right, so if you see the PAPI lights on a runway, does that not qualify you to descend below DA/DH/MDA? PAPI isn't VASI etc... what do you guys think

mcartier713

I'm 99.9% sure the PAPIs count even tho they are not specifically listed... they are part of the approach lighting system, so if they are "distinctly visible and identifiable" then there should be no reason they wouldn't count.


how do you guys pronounce "VASI?" vASSee or vAHsee