PFT Pro/Con question
02-11-2008, 06:53 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by Senior Skipper
It's a good thing I'm committed to "this airplane thing" (as one of my relatives puts it), else you guys would turn me right off the idea of flying. No foul though. Sometimes you need a bit of honesty here and there.
Oh, Btw Slice, I was gonna make a comment about your aviator as well, but I must admit...I laugh every time I see it. LOL.
On a serious note, I appreciate your input. One thing about me is I'm no playa hater and I'm not insinuating that anyone who views things differently from me is. I respect each individuals take on things.
atp
02-11-2008, 07:53 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
First day of class at the new job we're all standing outside during a break getting to know each other. We're asking about experience and whatnot. There were quite a few with 121 experience so we were asking each other where we came from. Around the circle it goes. Comair, ASA, Eagle, Colgan, Commutair, TSA, and so on. This is, until the last guy hangs his head, and says "Gulfstream". Every one of us walked away.
Ok, here's my thing. We all have to pay to get the ratings. I'm fine with that. There's no difference between that, and going to a vocational/technical school. However, when you pay a company like gulfstream for a job that you are already qualified for, you're costing youself and ever single other person in this profession for years to come.
Low timers are here to stay. There's nothing thats' going to change that. There was a time when many airlines did PFT, that was when there were tons of qualified candidates and not many available seats. A prime example of this would be comparing Majors to Regionals. Most regionals are paying for hotel rooms and paying during training while many Majors still don't provide housing during newhire training. Why? People are willing to accept it as a price of admission.
Ok, here's my thing. We all have to pay to get the ratings. I'm fine with that. There's no difference between that, and going to a vocational/technical school. However, when you pay a company like gulfstream for a job that you are already qualified for, you're costing youself and ever single other person in this profession for years to come.
Low timers are here to stay. There's nothing thats' going to change that. There was a time when many airlines did PFT, that was when there were tons of qualified candidates and not many available seats. A prime example of this would be comparing Majors to Regionals. Most regionals are paying for hotel rooms and paying during training while many Majors still don't provide housing during newhire training. Why? People are willing to accept it as a price of admission.
02-11-2008, 07:59 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Originally Posted by atpwannabe
You know...I couldn't agree more.
Oh, Btw Slice, I was gonna make a comment about your aviator as well, but I must admit...I laugh every time I see it. LOL.
On a serious note, I appreciate your input. One thing about me is I'm no playa hater and I'm not insinuating that anyone who views things differently from me is. I respect each individuals take on things.
atp
Oh, Btw Slice, I was gonna make a comment about your aviator as well, but I must admit...I laugh every time I see it. LOL.
On a serious note, I appreciate your input. One thing about me is I'm no playa hater and I'm not insinuating that anyone who views things differently from me is. I respect each individuals take on things.
atp
Originally Posted by atpwannabe
Let me ask the question that.......why is it that it seems that so many people that participate in this forum hate or for of a better term dislike the PFT programs? It would seem to me that no matter what route one would take, whether CFI or PFT, one would still have to fly to the standard. Right?
So...if this is the case, what is the total percentage of actual PFT flying in the 91, 121, 135 world and what is its impact? It would seem that the percentage would be negligibe. Yet and still, I witness some of the most vehemently disdain for the PFT training. Why is that?
Forget the argument that it drives down the industry because if the total impact is negligible on total flying that is done for hire, then its impact is insignificant?!!? Right? Which leads me to believe that there is something up the sleeves of those who strongly discourage those from participating in PFT's other than their arm. I know those who are in it and it works for them. I'm a third party looking at all the alternatives.
Now...before some of you get your tighty whiteys caught up in the crack of your a$$, leave your personal persuasions, insights, and thoughts out of this. Been there...done that. Sarcastic posts...leave them out...PLEASE. I have studied "current trends & problems" of the aviation industry for at least 15+ years. The PFT programs are a way to adapt to the changing times/industry demand. What are your thoughts?
I'm looking for comments (posts) that have substance & content. SkyHigh, ryane946, TomGoodman, ctd57, SWApilot, rickair7777, CalCapt, N6274G (frat), Jetjock16, and even RedEye (from Cargo) and all the old heads.......I'm looking to hear from YOU!!! Even LAFrequentFlyer.......if the Moderator will allow him to post a comment and all those who feel that they have something to contribute to this thread.
atp
So...if this is the case, what is the total percentage of actual PFT flying in the 91, 121, 135 world and what is its impact? It would seem that the percentage would be negligibe. Yet and still, I witness some of the most vehemently disdain for the PFT training. Why is that?
Forget the argument that it drives down the industry because if the total impact is negligible on total flying that is done for hire, then its impact is insignificant?!!? Right? Which leads me to believe that there is something up the sleeves of those who strongly discourage those from participating in PFT's other than their arm. I know those who are in it and it works for them. I'm a third party looking at all the alternatives.
Now...before some of you get your tighty whiteys caught up in the crack of your a$$, leave your personal persuasions, insights, and thoughts out of this. Been there...done that. Sarcastic posts...leave them out...PLEASE. I have studied "current trends & problems" of the aviation industry for at least 15+ years. The PFT programs are a way to adapt to the changing times/industry demand. What are your thoughts?
I'm looking for comments (posts) that have substance & content. SkyHigh, ryane946, TomGoodman, ctd57, SWApilot, rickair7777, CalCapt, N6274G (frat), Jetjock16, and even RedEye (from Cargo) and all the old heads.......I'm looking to hear from YOU!!! Even LAFrequentFlyer.......if the Moderator will allow him to post a comment and all those who feel that they have something to contribute to this thread.
atp
02-11-2008, 08:02 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
First day of class at the new job we're all standing outside during a break getting to know each other. We're asking about experience and whatnot. There were quite a few with 121 experience so we were asking each other where we came from. Around the circle it goes. Comair, ASA, Eagle, Colgan, Commutair, TSA, and so on. This is, until the last guy hangs his head, and says "Gulfstream". Every one of us walked away.
Ok, here's my thing. We all have to pay to get the ratings. I'm fine with that. There's no difference between that, and going to a vocational/technical school. However, when you pay a company like gulfstream for a job that you are already qualified for, you're costing youself and ever single other person in this profession for years to come.
Low timers are here to stay. There's nothing thats' going to change that. There was a time when many airlines did PFT, that was when there were tons of qualified candidates and not many available seats. A prime example of this would be comparing Majors to Regionals. Most regionals are paying for hotel rooms and paying during training while many Majors still don't provide housing during newhire training. Why? People are willing to accept it as a price of admission.
Ok, here's my thing. We all have to pay to get the ratings. I'm fine with that. There's no difference between that, and going to a vocational/technical school. However, when you pay a company like gulfstream for a job that you are already qualified for, you're costing youself and ever single other person in this profession for years to come.
Low timers are here to stay. There's nothing thats' going to change that. There was a time when many airlines did PFT, that was when there were tons of qualified candidates and not many available seats. A prime example of this would be comparing Majors to Regionals. Most regionals are paying for hotel rooms and paying during training while many Majors still don't provide housing during newhire training. Why? People are willing to accept it as a price of admission.
02-12-2008, 07:15 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Originally Posted by Senior Skipper
It's a good thing I'm committed to "this airplane thing" (as one of my relatives puts it), else you guys would turn me right off the idea of flying. No foul though. Sometimes you need a bit of honesty here and there.
) and on other days you're ready for everyone from the CEO on down to the numbnut fueler (who just put all 4500lbs of the fuel order into ONE wing) to line up for the asskicking you would so love to give them.
02-12-2008, 08:44 AM
#37
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
Then why did you ask everyone to leave their "personal persuasions, insights, and thoughts out of this" in your original post that started this thread? The funny part is that the last sentence of the very same paragraph asks, and I quote "What are your thoughts?" You may not be a playa hata but Christ can you contradict yourself!
atp
02-12-2008, 09:52 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
First day of class at the new job we're all standing outside during a break getting to know each other. We're asking about experience and whatnot. There were quite a few with 121 experience so we were asking each other where we came from. Around the circle it goes. Comair, ASA, Eagle, Colgan, Commutair, TSA, and so on. This is, until the last guy hangs his head, and says "Gulfstream". Every one of us walked away.
Ok, here's my thing. We all have to pay to get the ratings. I'm fine with that. There's no difference between that, and going to a vocational/technical school. However, when you pay a company like gulfstream for a job that you are already qualified for, you're costing youself and ever single other person in this profession for years to come.
Ok, here's my thing. We all have to pay to get the ratings. I'm fine with that. There's no difference between that, and going to a vocational/technical school. However, when you pay a company like gulfstream for a job that you are already qualified for, you're costing youself and ever single other person in this profession for years to come.
Sounds like you're at a Major pax or cargo outfit. It appears that the group of pilots you were hanging out with didn't have an issue with his skills and ability to fly, b/c obviously if there were one, I don't think he would have been there in the first place. At any rate, it comes across that the issue was with the way how he got his flight training.
In terms of being already qualified....I'm not. I have zero flight time. Since this is one of the biggest investments that I'm going to make, I want to get a feel for the industry, its people, its culture. I don't need to walk into a hornet's nest anywhere I go.
atp
02-12-2008, 12:58 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by atpwannabe
Sounds like you're at a Major pax or cargo outfit. It appears that the group of pilots you were hanging out with didn't have an issue with his skills and ability to fly, b/c obviously if there were one, I don't think he would have been there in the first place. At any rate, it comes across that the issue was with the way how he got his flight training.
In terms of being already qualified....I'm not. I have zero flight time. Since this is one of the biggest investments that I'm going to make, I want to get a feel for the industry, its people, its culture. I don't need to walk into a hornet's nest anywhere I go.
atp
In terms of being already qualified....I'm not. I have zero flight time. Since this is one of the biggest investments that I'm going to make, I want to get a feel for the industry, its people, its culture. I don't need to walk into a hornet's nest anywhere I go.
atp
02-12-2008, 02:29 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
ATP,
If I recall you're a ramper for a major. If this is the case, how would you feel if that company decided that they were going to replace you, your pay, and your bennefits with somebody from ATS (I worked for them at an FBO and was paid pretty well but know how it is on the airline side), Swissport or any of the other third-party vendors where the rampers start at $6 an hour? This contempt that I saw because I had an ATS shirt on once in a while at the terminal is the same as you'll find on the pilot side. We're all trying to make things better and nobody wins when they take the "easy" route. It harms all of us financially, professionally, and ethically (in my humble opinion) in the long run.
You can't replace experience. While you aren't going to learn how to program an FMS, make a crossing restriction, or figure out who you're calling on the radio next while at ORD from instructing, towing banners, or hauling freight there are a ton of other things that are going to be learned that will make you much better prepared and give you much more credibility in the front office. To a lesser extent, I think it makes you a better professional. Most of the academy kids (I'm 26 and these others acted like children regardless of their age) had this disgusting sense of entitlement while I was in class at the former employer. Everyone in class here has 1000 hours, many have other professional experiences outside of flying, and the difference in the attitude is night and day. Most of the stuff you learn in class can be taught to a monkey. I've done it twice now and I'm convinced of that. Remember, a chimp was the first American in space
And slice is right. I'm at Shuttle now. I left TSA last month.
If I recall you're a ramper for a major. If this is the case, how would you feel if that company decided that they were going to replace you, your pay, and your bennefits with somebody from ATS (I worked for them at an FBO and was paid pretty well but know how it is on the airline side), Swissport or any of the other third-party vendors where the rampers start at $6 an hour? This contempt that I saw because I had an ATS shirt on once in a while at the terminal is the same as you'll find on the pilot side. We're all trying to make things better and nobody wins when they take the "easy" route. It harms all of us financially, professionally, and ethically (in my humble opinion) in the long run.
You can't replace experience. While you aren't going to learn how to program an FMS, make a crossing restriction, or figure out who you're calling on the radio next while at ORD from instructing, towing banners, or hauling freight there are a ton of other things that are going to be learned that will make you much better prepared and give you much more credibility in the front office. To a lesser extent, I think it makes you a better professional. Most of the academy kids (I'm 26 and these others acted like children regardless of their age) had this disgusting sense of entitlement while I was in class at the former employer. Everyone in class here has 1000 hours, many have other professional experiences outside of flying, and the difference in the attitude is night and day. Most of the stuff you learn in class can be taught to a monkey. I've done it twice now and I'm convinced of that. Remember, a chimp was the first American in space
And slice is right. I'm at Shuttle now. I left TSA last month.
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