atpwannabe

I feel ya on that what you just said Pilotpip. You see, like I've said before, I want to find out about the "actual pilot culture...the mindset...the way 'how' things are done so to speak. It's just like when you went to RAH for your interview. I'm sure you gathered as much info as possible. I'm doing the same just in a different direction but primarily at the same magnitude. I've gotten information from both sides....pro PFT and con PFT. Both can get me to where I'd like to be, however there are some variables and tradeoffs that I'm going to have to seriously consider. For example, I have found a flight school that has a program that mirrors ATP's, but is $13K less....besides my fiance and son live in that city which is only 60miles away from me. Go figure. Btw, no RJ course offered there!!!

You're right. I'm a former ramper. Worked the ramp for DAL and CMR @ PBI and CVG respectively. I also enjoyed a career in Airport Ops. I've worked airside, landside & terminal. I loved it...especially airside. I do have an extensive work history being that I'm 46. BS from Riddle back in '87. I've worked from bagging groceries at Publix Supermarket to being Agent in Charge while on duty at PBI to Sales and Marketing at Comcast. This is no pipe dream. This has been a desire for as long as I can remember.

In all sincerity, I do appreciate all the feedback I'm getting. Others feel more passionate about this type of training than others. It's all good. Sharpening my skills as a pilot by flight instructing would build the necessary knowledge base I would need to be successful in any type flying. Training at a PFT facility after getting my CPL w/MEL rating would get me to the FO position quicker thus allowing my career to hopefully move at a quicker pace...something I believe we all want. However I do see your point about it can be harming to fellow airmen financially, professionally, and to an extent ethically.

All in all guys I thank you for your input. Decision time for me. I've got about another month to make up mind as to which direction I want to go. This was no flamebait or anything like that. I just don't want to **** up 40-55K!!!

Thanks again. Blue skies.


atp

Senior Skipper

LOL

I heard that line around April, and I couldn't wait for Christmas so I could use it. I got good laughs every time. And just for the record...

Aye! I'm not fat. I'm big boned!

de727ups

"Most of the stuff you learn in class can be taught to a monkey"

Which is why your previous experience "outside of class" is so important.....

SkyHigh

Ya know there are plenty of ways almost every pilot ends up paying for their job.

-One is to work for less (most airline jobs)
-Sign a training contract. (Indentured servitude)
-Buy your own type rating.
-Sell out your personal life to keep the dream alive.
-Risk your life in a dangerious flying job.
-wasted years of your life waiting to upgrade.
-Sell out your conscience and falsify records.
-Join the military when you don't want to and sign up for a lengthy commitment.


Often is it much cheaper to pay up front and in cash. In the end overyone pays something.

SkyHigh

freezingflyboy

So you've decided against Gulfstream then?

Despite popular belief and what Gulfstream would have you believe, most folks from GIA end up at other regionals before making it to the big show (if they ever do). And remember, if merger mania strikes and the big boys start to furlough or the regionals start to shrink and consolidate while the majors swallow each other up, you might get stuck for a while. Do you want to be stuck at Gulfstream? When the music stops you want to make sure you have a comfortable chair...it might be a while before it starts again.

azbulldog

I am new to this board, as you can see this is my first post, and want to say that each of you has some valuable insight. But I have also been giving Gulfstream consideration for a very specific reason, this is a career change for me.

One of you said previously that if someone has a family to feed then they should just keep that job. This was spoken like someone who has very little corporate job experience, is generalizing way too much and has no idea about how things happen in the corporate world.

My dream to fly has always been with me but life just happened and I took a different route and work in an office. I have a good career but things are different due going through a private equity acquisition. This isn't for me any longer and the stress is way too much, I want to make this career change. I am 42 with a wife and three kids and do not have the luxury of time that several of you have. I will have 21-23 years, at best, left after training while many of you have time to tow banners, instruct, or however else you plan to get your hours. Don't get me wrong, I am all about getting the proper experience but I just don't think I have the time to instruct for many months.

I want to get good experience in the fastest amount of time and with that this type of training seems like a good fit and I don't see where I would be paying any more for this training than somwhere like ATP.

freezingflyboy

Ughhh...some of you just don't get it!. First of all, the last paragraph speaks VOLUMES about what is wrong with the Gulfstream concept. It is NOT training, no matter how they market it. You are flying PAYING passengers around in a high performance aircraft doing a job that most PROFESSIONAL pilots would DEMAND to be paid for. Yet you think its ok to write a check for $30,000, effectively eliminating what would ordinarily be an oppurtunity for a PROFESSIONAL aviator to make a living while at the same time advancing their career. You talk about the need for you to find a quick opportunity to get into the airlines...well you my friend have just ELIMINATED one of those entry-level opportunities and replaced it with a "lets play airline pilot" program to the tune of 30 of YOUR hard earned G's. Congratulations.

You might get it after you've been in the business for a year but at that point it's too late. You've already paid your money and killed an otherwise rewarding pilot job. This is NOT an expensive flight sim game or a chance to chase a dream and play airline pilot for most of us. Some of us choose to make a living flying airplanes and whether or not you want to accept it or try to understand it, what one pilot group does affects the rest of us. So when other airlines like Commutair, Great Lakes and Big Sky might pay their pilots $16,000-23,000 to fly similar equipment, you are saying I am worth NEGATIVE $30,000 to do the same job. But you say "this is right for ME", "this will help ME", "this is the best thing for MY career", "MY timeline is shorter than most"...my, me, mine... That's great. But you are doing it at the detriment of hard working PROFESSIONAL aviators throughout the industry.

Just to add food for though, here are some appropriate definitions of "professional"
pro·fes·sion·al
-adj
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain
2. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain
-noun
1. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs

azbulldog

How am I so different? I am choosing to make a living at this as well. Yes I do say "what is right for me" and "what I need to do". Yes it is about me, in my mind and I think you, along with everyone else on the board does the same thing.

You make a good point about wasting $30k. No one wants to do that. But I have to get to my career goals in the most efficient manner that I can along with learning all I can about what it takes to be a darn good pilot. I am making a career change and I have a family to support, and there are others out there that are in the same position and if going this rout is the best for them, and they are still becoming excellent pilots, then how is that hurting the industry?

You provided definitions of a professional. So I will take it a step further; professionalism. It is a state of mind, a manner in which you conduct yourself, how you treat others in the job site and how you regard the company's policies and values. It is working with dignity and solid ethics. Regardless of where you got your training, you either have this or you don't.

Having said all that, I am not sold on Gulfstream. Heck, I don't think I liked the guy that I spoke with at the school, sounded as if he was trying to sell me a car. I just don't think that, if I or anyone else who goes through this rout, is any less of a pilot that someone who instructs, or tows banners for several months.

freezingflyboy

I'll tell you the big difference between me (and most of the professional pilots I know for that matter) and the mindset of the person who considers Gulfstream a viable option: none of us are willing to PAY $30,000 for a job where we should be the ones GETTING PAID $30,000. Period. I don't care what the circumstances are. What if someone fresh out of college showed up one day offering to pay your employer to do YOUR office job because its something they've always dreamed of doing and its a good way for them to quickly advance their career? Now you're out on your ass. How's that feel to you? That is how most other pilots in the industry view Gulfstream and the equivalent "pay to play" outfits. You are trivializing an important job that we take very seriously. I would invite you to do a search for other threads about Gulfstream (and similar outfits) here on APC. Should be very eye opening to you.

And for the record, the WORST, most unsafe pilot I have EVER seen was a Gulfstream "graduate". And I used to do private pilot checkrides at the flight school I taught at so that is saying a lot. This individual had 1100 hours, 800 from Gulfstream, and was a danger to themselves and others whenever they got near the pointy end of an airplane. Hardly what I would call a quality "training" outfit.

Let me pose a hypothetical situation to you: SuperJet Airlines is hiring folks off the street into their Airbus fleet with a wet commercial multi-engine certificate. They are hiring hundreds of pilots and have a large base in your town. Basically you meet the mins, and you have a job! Sounds like a great deal right? One catch: you have to cross a picket line of SuperJet pilots who are on strike. But its a quick step into a "big airplane" right? It's whats in the best interest of you and your family, right? Now you get to spend 20 years at a major, skipping the regional world all together! Great, right? Would you do it? My point is, sometimes what seems like the easy, quick option is NOT the best option. This is a scenario that pilots at United, Continental, Eastern and, most recently, GoJets were presented with. The ones that took the opportunity can now count themselves among the ranks of industry "scabs". In case you're unfamiliar, a scab is about the lowest form of life in the airline industry. Somewhere between a used barf bag and the toilet paper floating in the blue juice. And you will be treated accordingly. Now, going to Gulfstream will not make you technically a scab but don't count on a warm, fuzzy reception when people find out thats where you got your "training".

I hope you take that definition of professionalism to heart. Because most (myself included) do NOT consider PAYING for a job at Gulfstream, or anywhere else for that matter, to represent someone with dignity and solid ethics. Once again, Gulfstream is an AIRLINE, not a flight school. Don't think of it as such. By the time you are eligible for a job at Gulfstream, technically you should have the skills and knowledge to fly people and property around for money. All you are doing is paying $30,000 to play airline pilot.

Thats good to hear you weren't impressed by the person you talked to at Gulfstream. But to be honest, I would rather hear you say that you aren't sold on the whole concept of PAYING for a job! I mean the fact that anyone, much less a career changer looking for the fast track, would see nothing wrong with PAYING $30,000 for a job that they would otherwise be compensated for is beyond me. Good luck with your decision, but Christ, think long and hard about this one.

Radials Rule

PFT (i.e. ala Comair and Continental Express circa mid 90's) or PFJ (Gulfstream) in all cases is despicable and shameful. Any hiring method that chooses less experience pilots because they're willing to pay over more experienced pilots that won't pay is a disgrace. Granted, some of these airlines started to adjust to the "market" and have less or no payment for more experienced pilots. However, this doesn't absolve them nor does it absolve those that bought their jobs of their low life status.

Yes atpwannabe, even though your original post was loaded (as if you wanted rationalization) PFT or PFJ does contribute to bringing down the industry and cheapening the profession.