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Old 10-18-2008, 12:02 AM   #11  
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I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.
You can't teach judgment and at 325 hours you ain't got much. I'll take the high time guy 99/100 times.
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Old 10-18-2008, 07:36 AM   #12  
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What is the average amount of hours that a guy who graduates from UPT has when going to fly right seat in a KC-135,C-17 or any other heavy aircraft?
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:08 AM   #13  
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This was my post down in the Pilot Lounge and the thread is "Leaving the Career".


Originally Posted by SkyHigh
..... It seems to me that the only thing of value that we have left is the ability to sell ourselves out over the next pilot. And that is not a very good position to be in.

SkyHigh




If that is the case, and it seems as though that's what's going to occur for & over the next 3-5 years.....just thinking out loud.....why not go to a Gulfstream or some other PFT and get the turbo-prop experience that is so highly sought after to better position myself when the dust/debris clears?

Given the current economic situation, is this a viable option for some now? The comment was made earlier that regionals aren't going to be lowering their minimums to CPL/ME any time soon and with so many guys that are furloughed people like me who are starting out and as old as I am, (46yrs old), may have a hard road to hoe!!!




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Old 10-18-2008, 12:22 PM   #14  
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What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!
I'm going to have to disagree on that one. It matters on a personal level for one, and for two a 200 hr pilot barely has his willy wet and wouldn't have a clue what to do when the captain goes to take a leak is left all alone. A 200 hr pilot doesn't even know what solo imc is like 9/10 times let alone going into the flight levels or going 250+knots.

A commercial part 91 job doing survey work, traffic watch (maybe), Flight instructing, something that gets someone PIC time, will make them a better pilot. You don't need 5000 hrs to fly as an effect crew member in a CRJ, 1000 hrs would be fine, and if you could get on with some company at 500 hrs you may be ok (going back to the personal thing). Anything less than 400 is kinda crazy I believe for any 121 op. It doesn't matter the training someone goes through to get in the right seat. Time as pic gives someone ADM skills. I never thought I would say it, but instructing really does teach the instructor more about aviation than they thought they knew...

This will become an interesting thread.
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Old 10-18-2008, 12:46 PM   #15  
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What is the average amount of hours that a guy who graduates from UPT has when going to fly right seat in a KC-135,C-17 or any other heavy aircraft?
Don't even try and compare military screening and training to 90 days at ATP and then RJ ground school. I'll clue you in though, 300 hour UPT grads don't know much either.
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Old 10-18-2008, 01:39 PM   #16  
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I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.

I disagree. The specifics may differ, however the framework or format is the same; and that's to avoid an accident/incident.


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Old 10-19-2008, 08:56 AM   #17  
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Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one. Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work. For the guy who commented that a 350 hour pilot wouldn't know what to do with an RJ if the Captain went to the bathroom, allow me to ask, how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that. I don't care who you are or where you got your training, first time you sat right seat in a jet you wouldn't be safe without the Captain. Now lets just acquiesce once and for all that you don't need much time to do what you do. Suck it up throw the pride out the door and realize it doesn't take a maverick to do your job. It is fine with me.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:04 AM   #18  
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Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one.


Obviously you read way to much into what I was attempting to convey. Maybe a poor choice of words that didn't clearly convey what I intended say...granted...however, I'll say that the concept or the idea is the same. For instance, say you have two students on a XC flight and they start having engine trouble. While one calls out the engine out emergency check list, the other performs the tasks. This could happen in a SE Cessna or a Duchess, Seminole ect.

That's my point. A crew working as a team to avoid an accident/incident. This should clear up any misunderstanding on your part. Oh btw, subtle insults will get you nowhere as far as I'm concerned.



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Old 10-19-2008, 10:52 AM   #19  
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Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one. Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work. For the guy who commented that a 350 hour pilot wouldn't know what to do with an RJ if the Captain went to the bathroom, allow me to ask, how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that. I don't care who you are or where you got your training, first time you sat right seat in a jet you wouldn't be safe without the Captain. Now lets just acquiesce once and for all that you don't need much time to do what you do. Suck it up throw the pride out the door and realize it doesn't take a maverick to do your job. It is fine with me.
How would you know? Aren't you a CFI who has not yet flown 121? Tell you interviewers all that in your airline interview and let us know how it goes...
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:35 PM   #20  
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Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! ...blah...blah....blah...

My 10-yr old daughter shares a common characteristic with young pilots such as this guy, they have no idea how much they don't know. You show your ignorance when you post what you do - hey, we all started out as neophytes, but we didn't all think we knew it all. How naive are you to believe that a 350-hr pilot is no better than a 5000-hr pilot? It's called experience and over a 5,000 hr career, there are bound to be learning experiences along the way. It works for doctors, cops, plumbers, etc,...you learn from experience and a 350-hr pilot has relatively none.

Just because anyone passes IOE for a regional does not mean that he is the real deal. And it also does not mean that he/she isn't actually increasing the workload for the Capt when the chips are down.

As far as your systems monitoring comments go, I am fairly confident I won't want you up front if those systems start going downhill (2 engine flameout, complete loss of electric, etc) or if the weather starts going south (T-storms, unforecast severe icing, low vis down to mins, low vis below mins with a divert required, low vis below mins with gas at or just below bingo and everyone promising that legal wx is just minutes away, etc). When you look at several of the last regional mishaps, in most cases the argument can be made that they would not have occurred with more experienced pilots at the controls (dual engine flameout too slow/too high, takeoff on wrong runway, runway incursion issues). Oh wait, these are things Capts and F/O's wanting to be Capt's concern themselves with - and your comments in no way resemble a Capt's mentality.

It just so happens that AOPA magazine did an article about 0 to RJ right seat in 200 hrs. To that I say, just because it can be done does not mean that it should be done. To the original poster, my criticism is leveled to the people making the hiring decisions. If the norm becomes getting hired at 200 hrs, and you think that you are as good or better than the avg 200 hr pilot, and that is what you want to do - go for it. You boycotting the practice will not change the practice - get hired and focus on becoming the best future Capt you can be.
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