Bowersbum

"(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

FTD is not an aircraft therefore does not go in the actual or simulated instrument columns"

But you seem to avoid 61.51(g)(4)? That was my question to you....After reading that part would you agree that you can log it as instrument time? Great post by the way, siting the FAR's. I think that will help people locate it on their own.

multipilot

No and yes. FTD time requires an instructor in order to log it.

multipilot

With all due respect I would have to disagree. Go back and look at the definition of "instrument flight time" in 61.51(g) and then "flight time" and "aircraft" quoted in my post. Ftd does not meet the definition of "aircraft" nor does it fall under the definition of "flight time" and thus does not meet "instrument flight time" in 61.51(g)

Edit: hmmm after re-reading your post and (4) i see what you're saying. According to that then I would say it would count towards total instrument time; however, it still does not meet simulated instrument or actual instrument because it is not flight time. I hope that clarifies things a little better. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thanks! I hope this does help.

de727ups

It would seem to me that subparagraph 4 does not require an aircraft. Would you disagree?

Bowersbum

I agree that it doesn't have to be in an aircraft.

(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.

multipilot

Directly? No.

However...
While 61.51(4) does not imply an aircraft, 61.51(g) does with regards to logging simulated and actual. Here's how I see it:

FTD can count toward total instrument, i.e. actual + simulated (hood) + FTD = total instrument time

Bowersbum

(1) and (4) are two different ways to log instrument time. It doesn't say you have to fulfill all of the requirements under (g) to be able to log it.

multipilot

To avoid any confusion, lets look at 61.51(g) as a whole...

Logically (at least it makes sense in my head anyway):

simulated and actual instrument references "flight time" in (1)

FTD time can count toward instrument time in (4)

Therefore, actual + simulated = instrument flight time

instrument flight time + FTD = total instrument

multipilot

Who said you had to?

Let me put a different spin on it

Actual instrument flight = instrument time

simulated instrument flight (i.e. hood) = instrument time

Flight Training Device (not flight time) = instrument time

Any combination of the above = total instrument.

Point is its instrument time either way you slice it and I think we both agree.

I feel it's important though to differentiate between "simulated instrument" and "flight training device" because the way i read it they're not one in the same. Simulated instrument requires flight time as indicated by (g)(1). (g)(4) simply says ftd time can count toward instrument time, and I interpret "instrument time" to imply total instrument time. Perhaps i failed to clarify that in my previous posts.

NoyGonnaDoIt

"Easier" is the key word here.

And multipilot has it right.

There's no question that time flying instruments in an FTD is simulated instrument time that may be counted toward instrument time requirements. 61.51(g)(4).

There's also no question that instruction received in an FTD is training time. 61.51(h)(1).

But there is also no question that time in an FTD is not "flight time". Take a look at the definitions of "flight time" and "aircraft" in FAR 1.1 and you'll see it.

I think the reason people get into so many arguments about this is that, once you get past those basics, how you put those numbers in a logbook is a bookkeeping issue not a regulatory one.

As Bowersbum suggested, at that point it becomes what is easier, and the only real rule is that the method you use is consistent, so that there is never any question, looking at your logbook, that you chose, for example, to list all your training in the "dual received" column, all your non-actual instrument time in the "simulated instrument" column and all of your "pilot time" (see FAR 61.1(b)(12)) in the "total time" column, and will deduct the number in the FTD column whenever asked to give "flight time" totals in those categories. (one way to show it would be to deduct the word "flight" from those columns if it appears).

Two notes to that:

1. Most find it easier to reserve the "dual received", "simulated instrument" and "total time" columns for "flight time" entries. Most questions about time involve flight time, whether it be the FAA's 8710, an insurance application, or a job application. So for most people that's the better bookkeeping choice. And the use of phrases such as "hood" and "total duration of flight" in many published logbooks suggest that this is the more widely-used method.

2. The choice of bookkeeping method belongs to the pilot, not the instructor. The worst case scenario is the CFI who tries to change a pilot's bookkeeping method to the CFI's own "right" way. You want to change my method? Convince me that it makes more sense for me or let me onto your computer so I can mess around with your Quicken categories and see how well that works for you.