Chrisw

The other day while conversing with one of my friends who is also a CFI/CFII/MEI, I was unwillingly entered into a debate regarding the logging of PIC flight time. The situation was that he was a passenger in the back seat of a sceneca while the front seats had another CFI/CFII/MEI and a private pilot working towards his PMEL add on. He claimed that since he is an instructor and aided in instructing the student he could log all of the time in the aircraft as PIC instruction given. I obviously find this hard to believe because he is in no way in contact with any of the controlls of the aircraft. In my curiosity, I reviewed FAR 61.51 (e) which deals with logging of pilot in command time. section (3) states, "An authorized instructor may log pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor." This leads me to ask what exactly is "an authorized instructor?" 61.1 (b) (2) defines an authorized instructor. section (i) explains ground instructors and section (ii) explains, "A person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate..." In 61.193 where the privilages of a flight instructor are outlined in (a) through (i), nowhere does it say that only one instructor at a time can instruct one student. 61.189 (a) states, "A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training." So does this mean that both the instructors would need to sign the private pilot's log book? I feel like I have raised more questions than answers in my search for the truth here. I am not looking for someone's opinion as to whether it is morally ok to log flight time from the back seat, I am looking for what is allowed per the FAA. I am looking for specific FARs that will help me better understand the ruling on this. If anyone can give me any information on this matter it would be appreciated. Thanks

BoilerUP

While you can put whatever you want into your logbook, its not exactly rational or ethical to log flight time while A PASSENGER. His misguided attempt to build multi time very well could go undisclosed, but it very well might also close him out from future opportunities.

wmuflyboy

but thats exactly what it boils down to...being morally ok. even though i believe there is nothing in the regs that say only ONE instructor can teach at the same time, sitting in the back to anyone knowledgable in aviation makes you a passenger as said above. thats an extremely rediculous way to build multi time. tell your friend to be a little more professional....

rickair7777

There is nothing which specifically requires an instructor to occupy a control station, and in fact it is common in some circumstances for pilots to log PIC while not at a control station (long-haul airline CA, 141 Chief Pilot doing instructor check, etc)

But in aviation the legal right answer is not just what you read verbatim in the regs...it is a combination of (very poorly written) regs, FAA legal opinions, and case history from the NTSB.

In the case of a part 61 CFI, I'd bet the FAA would not accept that PIC time on an 8710.

Employers often have different, more stringent, requirements than the FAA...no employer would accept that flight time either.

250 or point 65

In my mind, unless there's legitimate instruction taking place, this situation is just as bad as pencilwhipping time.

The whole point of counting hours is not to get your ratings or get to an airline, it is a gauge of experience. This is why I say it's like pencilwhipping hours. You're getting the same experience either way.

This is also why pilots often refer to quality of time. Most employers would look at night, IFR, wintertime cargo as more quality time than jump pilot time. That's because they are looking for the best experience.

jumpseat2024

Ahhh..the wonderful gray areas of the FARs..If anything, I could see him being able to log it as Dual Given..but there's really no physical way he could command that aircraft being in the back seat in a given emergency where a PIC is needed most.

But again, if he's that desperate to build the multi-PIC, then whatever floats his boat. He just better hope an airline doesn't catch anything while going through his logbook..that would be one explaination I wouldn't want to give during an interview...

Chrisw

Thanks for the input from everyone. I agree on the moral part of the issue, but I am curious if there is an official answer on this. One pilot that i spoke to brought up a good point that a check airmen for his airline works from the jumpseat and can log his time. Not sure if it was PIC or not, but he is not at a control station and is fully responsible for the outcome of the flight.
I know that it would be unwise to log the pic time on an instrument flight due to the fact that i would assume that it could be looked up as to who filed as PIC on that particular flight. On a VFR flight, however, there is no way that i can think of that it could be an issue at an interview. I don't believe in dishonesty, I am simply looking for a firm yes or no interpretation. Any check airmen out there that can give me some input? Thanks again to all who have and will contribute.

wmuflyboy

i would say the check airman situation is a little bit different because the airplane that he is checking the pilot on is certified by the FAA to be flown by 2 pilots unlike a light twin which is single-pilot certified. i guess one could argue that the check airman could occupy that second seat instead of sitting in the jumpseat but i guess it depends on the circumstance...

BoilerUP

You can always write Chief Counsel for an opinion...

250 or point 65

This doesn't matter one bit. Logging and acting are two totally separate things.

Say my student buys a new airplane in which he is rated. For insurance and his own personal piece of mind, he needs to be babysat for 25 hrs. It doesn't matter who files the flight plan or who the two of us decide is going to be the PIC, both of us are logging it. He logs PIC dual recieved, I log PIC dual given.