Tweetdrvr

[In reality, I would reference the MSA and stay above it untill on a published portion of the approach. Then I would fly over the VOR and turn back towards it and establish myself outbound on the approach and fly the rest of the approach with the procedure turn and all.[/quote]


sellener, your idea is correct. I don't know where to find it in the CFRs/Jepp Comm Inst Manual, but the the AF way here would be to do almost exactly what you suggest. Except, I would remain at the MEA/MOCA as MSAs are not really part of the approach procedure, they exist to give you an altititude to use in an emergency or to give you a reasonable safe altitude to fly at night while doing a visual approach. I would cross the VOR and turn right to a heading of 189, adjust for drift, go out 2 mins and reverse, tracking the 165 inbound places you within bounds of making a direct entry as if you were entering a hold, which is legal in the U.S. to fly a Proc Turn. You can descend to 3000' when outbound/abeam the VOR while executing the PT in this case. The other way would be to turn right an intercept the 189 outbound and do the 45/180. If the radial of the airway and the VOR PT inbound course were the same, then you could make a straight in without a NoPT routing, if you ask and the controller approved it. The AF teaches several different memory mnemonics on this one and they have changed a bit over the years, but SNERT-Hold is the most common today. Don't do the PT when a No PT routing is flown, Established in a holding pattern where the inbound course of the Hold and the PT are the same, Radar Vectors to final, or if it is a Holding in Lieu of, then you fly the reversal using holding pattern entry and descent rules.

The AF answer for a reversal where none was published would be either vectors to final, or request manuevering airspace to line yourself up for the approach. Look at the ILS approaches for KAUS to 17 L and R. If using manuervering airspace, you would essentially be making up your own procedure turn. Personally, I would not do this with out being in radar contact so as to have controller issued min vector altitude assignments. But, If I were going to do this, I may as well, let the controller give me vectors for downwind and base as this seems like it would be faster.

Approach, VACA 15 request manuevering airspace to the west of the XYZ three six zero radial to line up for the inbound course to the final approach fix for the VOR 18 approach to ABC airport.

VACA 15, manuevering airspace approved as requested, remain within 10 nautical miles of the XYZ VOR and maintain at or above 3,000 feet until established on a segment of the approach, cleared for the VOR 18 to ABC airport.

block30

See also the TERPS. Look how much airspace is protected if you don't go below PT altitude.

1) Go to FAA Order 8260.3B - United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPS)

2) Click on Basic including changes 1 thru 18

3) Find Chap 2, Page 12-1

4) look at figure 5 and table 1A

If you haven't seen how much airspace is protected before check it out; At or below 6,000 MSL you're protected out to 7 NM on the side opposite the PT, and 8 NM past the PT distance...for a total of 18NM from the VOR on the PT side. Thus, from end to end you have 25NM protected. The thickness works out to be about 16NM at the widest point. You do have room to get turned around for the PT. (I am including the secondary areas, just FYI)

NoyGonnaDoIt

I think I'm still misunderstanding what you are getting at.

You are on V133 heading toward SAW VOR. You're not being vectored. ATC clears you for the VOR 1 approach. You fly on the airway to the VOR (the IAF) and then turn outbound for the depicted procedure turn, a published segment of the approach that is required because you don't fit in one of the exceptions in 91.175(j).

Are you asking why you fly what the chart tells you to instead of making something up?

sellener

I think Noygonnadit simple and sarcastic comment is actually quite right. I am asking how to fly the approach as depicted.

I would have flown to the IAF and turned around outbound, which as noygonnadoit pointed out simply what the approach chart says.

It just seemed that their would be some guidance on the almost 180 degree turn in the opposite direction to get established after flying to the VOR.

Or if a DPE asked me what altitude and what navigation method am I using during the 180 degree maneuver, I would definetly be fudging the answer a bit. Something to the effect of im flying the MEA or MSA whichever is higher and plan on a 180 ish degree turn to intercept the outbound course.

250 or point 65

sellener, keep it simple. You do exactly that. Turn almost 180 degrees and re-establish yourself outbound on the radial. Then do the PT as depicted. As for your altitude, isn't that going to come in your clearance?

Cleared direct ABC VOR, maintain 3200 until established, cleared ABC VOR 36 Approach.

If you were radio out, then you would fly the altitudes as guided in the AIM.

Tweetdrvr

Instrument Flying Handbook

Sellener,

Try Chapter 5, page 30 and also Chapter 8. This book and the Air Force Instrument Flight Manual are almost in lock step as they should be since instrument rules are instrument rules regardless of where in the NAS domestic airspace you are flying.

This book is number 3 on my reading list for my civilian instrument students. First--AIM, 2nd--Jepp Comm Instrument Book, 3rd--FAA instrument flying handbook

NoyGonnaDoIt

I really wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I really was trying to figure out what was being asked. The concept of flying what the chart shows is obvious enough to me that I really couldn't figure out what you were asking.

The remark was simple because I think it is.

But let's try to make it more complicated. This is a VOR approach (not a VOR/DME). That means it was designed so it could be flown with only a VOR. No DME. No GPS.

The VOR is on the airport, so there's no FAF. No way to know when to start down to the runway other than inbound on the PT.

No matter where you are coming from, assuming only VOR capability, what choices are there other than turning outbound and doing the PT that (1) complies with your clearance and (2) has you flying the approach that's depicted on the chart?

gesres

Forget the MSA, it's an emergency-only altitude in the US. You'd maintain the last altitude assigned by ATC, then after crossing the IAF, you'd descend down to the PT altitude.

If no PT is depicted, then no PT is authorized, and ATC's permission can't materialize protected area where none was considered by the approach designers.

cospilot

The approach plate has all the information you need.

Find your initial approach point (IAP) and follow the lines to the runway. If you aren't authorized to do a procedure turn, the approach plate will tell you.

If ATC doesn't want you to do a procedure turn, they will tell you.

If you don't want to do a procedure turn, ask for vectors.

As for which side you do the procedure turn on, it has to be in the direction depicted on the approach plate. How far do you go out on the outbound leg, usually about 1 to 1.5 mins accounting for wind and groundspeed. You never want to go outside the protected area, which is based on a fix depicted on the approach plate.

Also, don't make up your procedure turn unless you are VFR and their is absolutely no know traffic in the area. The procedure turn is in a certain direction for a reason. Comply with it and you live.

Finally, if you need to brush up on you instrument proficiency skills, I recommend visiting this website. I found the information terrific. Here is the link: IFR Training.

Jeffrey

250 or point 65

cos, you missed the point of the question. I think we've all got how to do the procedure turn. His question had to do with what to do immediately after hitting the final approach fix if you are pointed inbound, but need to "reverse course" to go outbound for the procedure turn.