The Big Question
04-26-2010, 07:55 PM
#11
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Cessna 172 Student Pilot
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by snippercr
I'm a little confused on your situation: are you finished with flight training with a Comm. AMEL or are you about to go into flight training?
If you haven't started training, then I'll give you much repeated advice that circulates these boards.
Here's the cliff notes: Work on your training part-time while you work another job so you DONT go into debt. You emerge as CFI/II/MEI, whole 9 yards with 0 debt. Then you can try to get a job instructing while working part time elsewhere to make ends meat. Eventually you might be able to get enough hours (good luck finding multi-time) to get a job. Either way, even dollar you get goes to something NEW, not paying off something that got you where you are now.
Sure its not a 4 month program that gives you everything, but people who did that either have rich parents (no fault of their own) or went into debt and have loan payments higher than first year FO payments.
If you MUST take loans out, try to stick with government loans. As kalyx522 said, they are a LOT more forgiving with low income. I qualify and since my loans are "subsidized", I don't have to pay interest while I am in deferment. Private loans are not so accommodating. Although there was a post somewhere about private loans possibly being cleared by bankruptcy. Not that I advise such course of action.
Welcome to the Jungle.
If you haven't started training, then I'll give you much repeated advice that circulates these boards.
Here's the cliff notes: Work on your training part-time while you work another job so you DONT go into debt. You emerge as CFI/II/MEI, whole 9 yards with 0 debt. Then you can try to get a job instructing while working part time elsewhere to make ends meat. Eventually you might be able to get enough hours (good luck finding multi-time) to get a job. Either way, even dollar you get goes to something NEW, not paying off something that got you where you are now.
Sure its not a 4 month program that gives you everything, but people who did that either have rich parents (no fault of their own) or went into debt and have loan payments higher than first year FO payments.
If you MUST take loans out, try to stick with government loans. As kalyx522 said, they are a LOT more forgiving with low income. I qualify and since my loans are "subsidized", I don't have to pay interest while I am in deferment. Private loans are not so accommodating. Although there was a post somewhere about private loans possibly being cleared by bankruptcy. Not that I advise such course of action.
Welcome to the Jungle.
04-26-2010, 07:57 PM
#12
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Cessna 172 Student Pilot
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by kalyx522
My loans are from an aviation university, so there was 6 month grace period after graduation. I didn't find a flying job (aerial survey) until 10 months after graduation so during this time my parents helped me a lot with living expenses and the rest I was living off credit cards and the scant income from various non-flying menial jobs. I was on forebearance from the time the 6 month grace period ended and the repayment period kicked in. I was still on forebearance after I got the survey job because my pay was low. The regionals were hiring in full force then so I got picked up by Colgan after barely finishing a season of surveying. Regional pay as you know is terrible, but I busted my butt to pick up a ton of extra flying (open time) and was making enough money to comfortably pay all my bills (was no longer in forebearance) and still have some left over for about a year and a half. Then the combination of recession (no more open time) and my regional hiring this scheduling manager who got fired by Mesa whose idea of running a cheap efficient airline is to build every line below 75 hours and making sure no one ever makes over guarantee was essentially a huge paycut for me. (I was regularly crediting 120+ hrs a month and after this my pay never went over the 75 guarantee. That's a difference of at least $1000 every month.) I got a second part-time job as a waitress for a couple of months but in all honesty it sucked (pay-wise and also if you work 4 days for an airline and 3 days for the part-time job, that leaves you with no days off.. ever.) I guess what I'm basically saying is depending on how much your monthly loan payments are and what the rest of your living expenses are, you may not be able to get by on 75 guarantee alone, but that's what you have to budget for because that's the only thing the airline actually guarantees you - 75 hrs of pay. Depending on where you go (different airlines build lines more or less efficiently and obviously mine is far from efficient, plus airlines with good contracts offer a lot more "soft" pay credit) and when, you may be able to credit more then than that, but consider that just an extra. This past year has been brutal for me financially for the reasons I described, and I did get help from my parents once and my significant other helps me out too. You mentioned you were married - it will obviously help if she has a job. That is really the only way to survive - either you get a second job or your wife helps pay the chunk of bills. Also, I don't know whether your loans are federal or private, but fed loans will be a lot more accomodating with your income level. If you are struggling they will work with you. Private loans, not at all.
To tell you the truth I am single and struggling - I really have no idea how the guys who are married with kids do it, and there are plenty of them at the regionals. With the exception of those few who are independently wealthy, I would have to guess that they live extremely frugally and/or get help from family. But, the living frugally part only goes so far when you're still only making $1300/month and you have a mortgage and a student loans to cover.
To tell you the truth I am single and struggling - I really have no idea how the guys who are married with kids do it, and there are plenty of them at the regionals. With the exception of those few who are independently wealthy, I would have to guess that they live extremely frugally and/or get help from family. But, the living frugally part only goes so far when you're still only making $1300/month and you have a mortgage and a student loans to cover.
Awesome reply... Lots of good info... Thanks for taking the time to go into such detail.
05-02-2010, 05:58 PM
#13
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Cessna 172 Student Pilot
Posts: 8
I greatly appreciate everyone's input, whether it's what I wanted to hear or not. Bottom line... I understand the current state of the industry and, maybe it's me trying to talk myself into it saying, "You only live once. Do what makes you happy." Every time I start trying to figure out the remainder of my life and what I want to pursue, it ALWAYS takes me back to flying. Again, thank you all for your replies... =)
05-03-2010, 06:24 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 37
Wegs,
If it makes you feel better, I have known hundreds of pilots.....the best are the ones who have the "love" for flying and not the pay. Yes, you only live once and there are ways. Look into scholorships and take a deep look into your current way of living and start reajusting now. It can be done, and seroiusly consider the academic approach, you can get scholorships, pell grants and such. If you get real frugal, you can pay off as you go or at least put big chuncks into paying them off while in school so you are not paying so much once you are out.
If it makes you feel better, I have known hundreds of pilots.....the best are the ones who have the "love" for flying and not the pay. Yes, you only live once and there are ways. Look into scholorships and take a deep look into your current way of living and start reajusting now. It can be done, and seroiusly consider the academic approach, you can get scholorships, pell grants and such. If you get real frugal, you can pay off as you go or at least put big chuncks into paying them off while in school so you are not paying so much once you are out.
05-03-2010, 07:27 AM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Furloughed -8
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by rickair7777
2. The mainline industry will never turn around, odds are that it will continue in a gradual decline until major airlines are merely shell companies which buy their lift from a pool of viciously competitive subcontractors...this will keep compensation locked at whatever brand new pilots are willing to accept to break into the industry.
05-03-2010, 11:02 AM
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: C172 Right
Posts: 64
^Agreed, agreed, agreed! If you make this job your life, and judge it based on how much you will make and how big of an airplane you will fly, you'll be miserable. Pilots have about 15 days off per month, so do something else you enjoy. Example-once I'm done with my flight training and (hopefully) flying for someone, I'm starting up a recording studio and music promotion business. Not the best paying job out there, but combine the pay with that of a regional pilot and its not that bad. One of my good friends who owns a studio makes $50/hour in his studio, which is just fine by me.
I could talk about wanting to make it in a band too, but let's leave that for another topic.
I could talk about wanting to make it in a band too, but let's leave that for another topic.
05-04-2010, 05:41 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: 737 Left
Posts: 1,825
Military and other ideas
Wegs,
You could always try the military. The army currently a program where someone with some college and some flight training could become a Warrant Officer and fly helicopters. Then the possibility exists to transition to fixed wing later, or move to a different service branch once you finish college. You would make a decent living and get all your flight training free of charge.
If the military doesn't appeal to you, you could get a job at an FBO, preferably one with a flight school, even if it is part time. This will give you the opportunity to meet people, which can open up flying opportunities. This usually also provides a discount on airplane rental and instruction. I use to charge the line guys half of what I charged everyone else. One of the guys, (newly married, very hard worker, not a whiner) I did his entire instrument rating for $500 and his commercial single engine for free. He paid for the plane, of course.
Another way you can do it is to get in to maintenance and learn to fix airplanes. You can go to school to do it (public state school, not a private one), or just get a job and learn as you go. This can open up flying opportunities also, and the A&P is often a desireable qualification.
Regardless of what you do, pay as you go. Save up some money and finish your cross country stuff. Then save up your money and do your checkride prep and checkride. Then fly your wife around a little while building about 25 hours of cross country time, also with cash, before starting your instrument rating. Save up your money to do the instrument rating. Then find the cheapest thing you can find that is safe to build time to 240 hours. Again, save your mone and do the commercial. You get the point?
It took me about 4 years from first flight to CFI while working another job, being married with kids, and paying the mortgage. It took me another 2 years to get a part time 135 job. Once I started flying for money, I did it part time while maintaining my other full time job. I still work part time in my old profession (less than 20 hours per week) because it pays well.
Bottom line is that you can do it, but you have to plan your work and work your plan to emerge on the other side victorious. Good luck!
By the way, I'm in a band too, but the pay is worse than entry level flying!
You could always try the military. The army currently a program where someone with some college and some flight training could become a Warrant Officer and fly helicopters. Then the possibility exists to transition to fixed wing later, or move to a different service branch once you finish college. You would make a decent living and get all your flight training free of charge.
If the military doesn't appeal to you, you could get a job at an FBO, preferably one with a flight school, even if it is part time. This will give you the opportunity to meet people, which can open up flying opportunities. This usually also provides a discount on airplane rental and instruction. I use to charge the line guys half of what I charged everyone else. One of the guys, (newly married, very hard worker, not a whiner) I did his entire instrument rating for $500 and his commercial single engine for free. He paid for the plane, of course.
Another way you can do it is to get in to maintenance and learn to fix airplanes. You can go to school to do it (public state school, not a private one), or just get a job and learn as you go. This can open up flying opportunities also, and the A&P is often a desireable qualification.
Regardless of what you do, pay as you go. Save up some money and finish your cross country stuff. Then save up your money and do your checkride prep and checkride. Then fly your wife around a little while building about 25 hours of cross country time, also with cash, before starting your instrument rating. Save up your money to do the instrument rating. Then find the cheapest thing you can find that is safe to build time to 240 hours. Again, save your mone and do the commercial. You get the point?
It took me about 4 years from first flight to CFI while working another job, being married with kids, and paying the mortgage. It took me another 2 years to get a part time 135 job. Once I started flying for money, I did it part time while maintaining my other full time job. I still work part time in my old profession (less than 20 hours per week) because it pays well.
Bottom line is that you can do it, but you have to plan your work and work your plan to emerge on the other side victorious. Good luck!
By the way, I'm in a band too, but the pay is worse than entry level flying!
05-04-2010, 04:50 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
Wegs,
I haven't been on this board in a while, but I gotta jump in on this. You must remember one thing:
This job is not just flying. Just because you love flying does not mean you'll love being a professional pilot.
You need to talk to as many airline pilots as you can at the regionals about what their life is like. A flying job is not just flying whenever you feel like going to the airport, its staying at hotels, talking to your spouse on the phone, spending your family reunion alone in your hotel room in Minot, ND.
I would NEVER EVER suggest to anyone with a family to become an airline pilot from scratch unless they hate their family and want to be away as much as possible. Yes, it may be your dream, but it is almost definitely NOT what your family deserves. Don't be selfish.
I haven't been on this board in a while, but I gotta jump in on this. You must remember one thing:
This job is not just flying. Just because you love flying does not mean you'll love being a professional pilot.
You need to talk to as many airline pilots as you can at the regionals about what their life is like. A flying job is not just flying whenever you feel like going to the airport, its staying at hotels, talking to your spouse on the phone, spending your family reunion alone in your hotel room in Minot, ND.
I would NEVER EVER suggest to anyone with a family to become an airline pilot from scratch unless they hate their family and want to be away as much as possible. Yes, it may be your dream, but it is almost definitely NOT what your family deserves. Don't be selfish.
05-04-2010, 05:54 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Furloughed -8
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by A320fan
^Agreed, agreed, agreed! If you make this job your life, and judge it based on how much you will make and how big of an airplane you will fly, you'll be miserable. Pilots have about 15 days off per month, so do something else you enjoy. Example-once I'm done with my flight training and (hopefully) flying for someone, I'm starting up a recording studio and music promotion business. Not the best paying job out there, but combine the pay with that of a regional pilot and its not that bad. One of my good friends who owns a studio makes $50/hour in his studio, which is just fine by me.
I could talk about wanting to make it in a band too, but let's leave that for another topic.
I could talk about wanting to make it in a band too, but let's leave that for another topic.
Also if on reserve you will never get more than the minimum of 11 days off a calender month.
05-05-2010, 11:10 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: PT Inbound
Posts: 219
I am still a youngster in the aviation community however, I am noticing the overall scheme of things in the aviation world.
I love to fly and being a 135 freight pilot, I love the type of flying that I do. That said, the question constantly in my mind is, "Is it all worth it?" I have always wanted to fly. Ever since grade school, I wanted to be a pilot however, I am wondering whether my love for flying is enough compensation to make it worth putting up with all of the crappy things about the job.
As opposed to the regionals, I am home every night at my home base and I have the weekends off. The other side of my schedule is I leave at 6:30am and return home around 9pm with a 6.5 - 8 hr layover in the middle of the day. Having the same days off every week is nice however, if you think about it, I only get 8 days off per month (sat + sun) x 4 weeks per month.
In addition to the aspects of my job, I also have a fiance who lives on the other side of the country. The fact that my job is M-F with only the weekends off, makes it impossible to commute across the country so i am forced to live away from my fiance and having done this for over a year now, I cannot wait for the day when I can live where I want (not on the other side of the country from her).
Now, given this situation, i keep telling myself it will be better when i get an actual airline job however, I am not sure if it will because i will just trade one set of annoying circumstances for another. I can deal with most of the bad aspects of the professional aviation industry because I love to fly however, (god willing) when I am married with two kids, a dog and a house somewhere, the ones who will suffer the most from my crappy job will be my family because they don't get anything out of it.
All in all, I feel your pain however, you really have to ask yourself, "Is it all worth it?" and no one else will know the answer but you!
I love to fly and being a 135 freight pilot, I love the type of flying that I do. That said, the question constantly in my mind is, "Is it all worth it?" I have always wanted to fly. Ever since grade school, I wanted to be a pilot however, I am wondering whether my love for flying is enough compensation to make it worth putting up with all of the crappy things about the job.
As opposed to the regionals, I am home every night at my home base and I have the weekends off. The other side of my schedule is I leave at 6:30am and return home around 9pm with a 6.5 - 8 hr layover in the middle of the day. Having the same days off every week is nice however, if you think about it, I only get 8 days off per month (sat + sun) x 4 weeks per month.
In addition to the aspects of my job, I also have a fiance who lives on the other side of the country. The fact that my job is M-F with only the weekends off, makes it impossible to commute across the country so i am forced to live away from my fiance and having done this for over a year now, I cannot wait for the day when I can live where I want (not on the other side of the country from her).
Now, given this situation, i keep telling myself it will be better when i get an actual airline job however, I am not sure if it will because i will just trade one set of annoying circumstances for another. I can deal with most of the bad aspects of the professional aviation industry because I love to fly however, (god willing) when I am married with two kids, a dog and a house somewhere, the ones who will suffer the most from my crappy job will be my family because they don't get anything out of it.
All in all, I feel your pain however, you really have to ask yourself, "Is it all worth it?" and no one else will know the answer but you!
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