Unable to log PIC time under IFR fightplan?
02-23-2011, 06:06 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
Originally Posted by mikearuba
So according to 61.3(e), the only kind of time that I cannot count towards my IR while on an IFR flightplan is:
Is that correct?
- PIC
- Cross country (XC)
Is that correct?
If you're working on your CFI, this will probably be covered. The FAA is aware of the problem of people not understanding these rules. So read 61.51 and ask questions if you don't understand it.
Good Grief. The FAA Chief Counsel clarified this back in 1980. Repeated it a number of times. Reconfirmed it just last year. And there are examiners out there who choose to violate it. Sigh.
02-23-2011, 06:07 AM
#12
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Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
You are absolutely right. The Examiner need a refresher course on 61.51 - sole manipulator of the controls by a pilot who is rated for the aircraft is 100% of the requirement for logging PIC.
Mike, it's a shame you got stuck with an Examiner who doesn't know (or perhaps just didn't like) the rules that have been crystal clear for more than 30 years.
No, walkofshame, there's no difference between cross country time and any other time in this situation. The only restriction on cross country time is that the pilot who logs cross country time must be the pilot who did both the takeoff and the touchdown. The instrument student who flies an IFR cross country with his instructor may log PIC and actual, cross country, night if those conditions apply to the flight.
This isn't grey. There are people who understand and people who don't. But "I personally don't understand or like it" is not the definition of a "grey area."
Mike, it's a shame you got stuck with an Examiner who doesn't know (or perhaps just didn't like) the rules that have been crystal clear for more than 30 years.
No, walkofshame, there's no difference between cross country time and any other time in this situation. The only restriction on cross country time is that the pilot who logs cross country time must be the pilot who did both the takeoff and the touchdown. The instrument student who flies an IFR cross country with his instructor may log PIC and actual, cross country, night if those conditions apply to the flight.
This isn't grey. There are people who understand and people who don't. But "I personally don't understand or like it" is not the definition of a "grey area."
So I could have / should have logged PIC for my training flight detailed in the above post above too? As stated, I only logged dual received. Not that I am changing anything now - but for my own clarification.
USMCFLYR
02-23-2011, 06:20 AM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 86
Ok so heres another question along the same lines:
An instrument student on an IFR flight plan, in IMC. If the instructor does the approach, or is on the controls at any time for that matter, should the student be logging that time as well, even though they are not the sole manipulator of the controls? I would say no, but in my experience, they still do. Should I be deducting all the time I am on the controls as a CFI when logging the students time? I'm sure our school, and students, would be very unhappy if I did this because the students are paying for the aircraft.
Even in the private training. Since there is a lot of demonstration during primary training, should you subtract the time you are on the controls when calculating the students total time?
An instrument student on an IFR flight plan, in IMC. If the instructor does the approach, or is on the controls at any time for that matter, should the student be logging that time as well, even though they are not the sole manipulator of the controls? I would say no, but in my experience, they still do. Should I be deducting all the time I am on the controls as a CFI when logging the students time? I'm sure our school, and students, would be very unhappy if I did this because the students are paying for the aircraft.
Even in the private training. Since there is a lot of demonstration during primary training, should you subtract the time you are on the controls when calculating the students total time?
02-23-2011, 06:20 AM
#14
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
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Posts: 39,292
Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
You are absolutely right. The Examiner need a refresher course on 61.51 - sole manipulator of the controls by a pilot who is rated for the aircraft is 100% of the requirement for logging PIC.
Mike, it's a shame you got stuck with an Examiner who doesn't know (or perhaps just didn't like) the rules that have been crystal clear for more than 30 years.
No, walkofshame, there's no difference between cross country time and any other time in this situation. The only restriction on cross country time is that the pilot who logs cross country time must be the pilot who did both the takeoff and the touchdown. The instrument student who flies an IFR cross country with his instructor may log PIC and actual, cross country, night if those conditions apply to the flight.
This isn't grey. There are people who understand and people who don't. But "I personally don't understand or like it" is not the definition of a "grey area."
Mike, it's a shame you got stuck with an Examiner who doesn't know (or perhaps just didn't like) the rules that have been crystal clear for more than 30 years.
No, walkofshame, there's no difference between cross country time and any other time in this situation. The only restriction on cross country time is that the pilot who logs cross country time must be the pilot who did both the takeoff and the touchdown. The instrument student who flies an IFR cross country with his instructor may log PIC and actual, cross country, night if those conditions apply to the flight.
This isn't grey. There are people who understand and people who don't. But "I personally don't understand or like it" is not the definition of a "grey area."
The PIC is achieved as sole manipulator of the controls.
The XC is achieved by being rated in the airplane (no requirement for an IR) and doing TO and LDG.
02-23-2011, 06:27 AM
#15
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Noy -
So I could have / should have logged PIC for my training flight detailed in the above post above too? As stated, I only logged dual received. Not that I am changing anything now - but for my own clarification.
USMCFLYR
So I could have / should have logged PIC for my training flight detailed in the above post above too? As stated, I only logged dual received. Not that I am changing anything now - but for my own clarification.
USMCFLYR
In 1988, I did a 7.4 hr instrument training x/c over a weekend from OK-IA-OK. My instructor had me log almost half that time in actual conditions and the other half under the hood and about 2.4 hrs of it at night too. It was all logged as dual given. Less than 2 weeks later I had my instrument checkride and I certainly don't remember my DPE giving me any grief over that time logged (by the time of my checkride I had 4.9 of actal time).
PIC: 7.4 hr.
Dual received: 7.4 hr.
Simulated instrument: 3.7 hr.
Actual instrument: 3.7 hr.
Night: 2.4 hr.
cross country: 7.4
02-23-2011, 06:34 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
Originally Posted by TI 3VOM
Ok so heres another question along the same lines:
An instrument student on an IFR flight plan, in IMC. If the instructor does the approach, or is on the controls at any time for that matter, should the student be logging that time as well, even though they are not the sole manipulator of the controls? I would say no, but in my experience, they still do.
An instrument student on an IFR flight plan, in IMC. If the instructor does the approach, or is on the controls at any time for that matter, should the student be logging that time as well, even though they are not the sole manipulator of the controls? I would say no, but in my experience, they still do.
Technically, if the instructor is demonstrating, it's dual received but not any type of flight time. They still do and my guess is that the FAA would look the other way. If the instructor does the approach, what are we talking about? Maybe 0.1? Not worth getting worked up over. If it's more extensive than that though, the FAA could be concerned if it were brought to their atttention.
02-23-2011, 06:43 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
Let's see... Assuming that you were at least a private pilot rated for the aircraft (talking FAA not military time) and assuming your 50/50 split between actual and simulated without discounting for your visual taxi, takeoff and landing time, which you would have to do, you had:
PIC: 7.4 hr.
Dual received: 7.4 hr.
Simulated instrument: 3.7 hr.
Actual instrument: 3.7 hr.
Night: 2.4 hr.
cross country: 7.4
PIC: 7.4 hr.
Dual received: 7.4 hr.
Simulated instrument: 3.7 hr.
Actual instrument: 3.7 hr.
Night: 2.4 hr.
cross country: 7.4
I was flying before the military - so I was rated and such.
Yes - it wasn't exactly a 50/50 split. I was just be general in the first post.
I logged as you described EXCEPT for the PIC time.
Looks like I am lacking some PIC time from my GA training days
USMCFLYR
02-23-2011, 11:24 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 165
Thanks for all your input guys! I have to admit, after I passed my IR checkride I never looked back on the issue. But now that I may be instructing students for their own IR checkrides one day, I don't want to put them through the same kick in the nuts that I got.
02-23-2011, 12:30 PM
#19
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Position: Going Mach Chicken
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
No, walkofshame, there's no difference between cross country time and any other time in this situation. The only restriction on cross country time is that the pilot who logs cross country time must be the pilot who did both the takeoff and the touchdown. The instrument student who flies an IFR cross country with his instructor may log PIC and actual, cross country, night if those conditions apply to the flight.
Your right, its not that much of a grey area.
Last edited by WalkOfShame; 02-23-2011 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Edited for clarification
02-23-2011, 01:38 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 2
61.3(e)(1): A person must hold an instrument rating to ACT as PIC under IFR or in IMC.
61.51(e): A person may LOG PIC time when they are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which they are rated, where "rating" includes category, class, and if applicable, type.
An instrument rating is not one of the ratings required to LOG PIC, but it is required to ACT as PIC.
Therefore, a non-instrument rated student who is flying under IFR or in IMC, with a CFII or instrument-rated safety pilot, may LOG PIC time for that flight, as well as cross-country PIC time, if it is a cross-country flight. The CFII or safety pilot must ACT as PIC.
The FAA has clarified this several times, the most recent being the following, which specifically addresses both PIC and PIC XC time:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Haralson.pdf
61.51(e): A person may LOG PIC time when they are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which they are rated, where "rating" includes category, class, and if applicable, type.
An instrument rating is not one of the ratings required to LOG PIC, but it is required to ACT as PIC.
Therefore, a non-instrument rated student who is flying under IFR or in IMC, with a CFII or instrument-rated safety pilot, may LOG PIC time for that flight, as well as cross-country PIC time, if it is a cross-country flight. The CFII or safety pilot must ACT as PIC.
The FAA has clarified this several times, the most recent being the following, which specifically addresses both PIC and PIC XC time:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Haralson.pdf
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